Studio 2011 and Trados 2007 - Incompatibilities that make me lose projects and money
Thread poster: Enrico C - ECLC

Enrico C - ECLC  Identity Verified
Taiwan
Local time: 03:03
Member (2011)
English to Italian
+ ...
Jun 27, 2012

Hi,

I just come from a set of back and forth emails with one of my major customers who has removed me from two major projects this week due to incompatibilities between files made with rules, settings, segmentations etc. for Trados 2007 and not compatible with Studio 2011.

In the first case (I posted this issue last week), basically i couldn't open any of the TTX files i had been sent with any SDL/Trados software (2007, 2009 and 2011). They did open properly on MemoQ though but i had already been removed from that project as they lacked the time to check on the files and find a solution (But i was told it was a problem during post translation when they have to handle too many languages).
A few days ago i got another major project. Tested files before beginning and they worked good. However, at the very last minute, the customer has decided to remove me from the project because, again i am using Studio 2011 and they have noticed that handling multilingual projects with translators using mixed platforms gives issues in analyses, wordcounts (That i know as i keep discussing with my customers which wordcount is right between Trados 2007 and Studio 2011), and other rules that cause segmentation, file compatibility etc., during post-translating, making the whole process more time consuming.

Now, before someone tells me i could have done this with Trados 2007/TadEditor and avoid the issue i'd like to point out two things:

A) Importing the TM for this specific customer takes 48 hours (yes 48 hours with millions of segments), so shifting platform is not a nice thing to do.
B) Similar complaints but on a less serious tone have been sent to me from more or less all other customers, with a worrying consistency. Especially for segmentation issues and issues in opening files delivered with 2011, so the focus is not really finding a method on how to do this specific project but knowing WHY these two software cause so many issues and make people lose money.


Below is the customer feedback on my remarks, explaining why i was removed from the last project, last minute, after they realized they had too many incompatibilities with Studio 2011

_________________________________________________________
Hi XXXXX,

XXX is a client with a very particular setup – the rules, the reasons, the specifications… all these things are dictated by the client and other personnel within the company which I have no hold over. Unfortunately there is a difference in the way Studio and Trados 2007 handle / process files. The analyses are different, the segmentation is different. Anything which causes us to have a different result from the client causes an issue.

I will always advocate your services to my colleagues, particularly for XXXXX. I’m sorry the decision has been taken for this project which affects you!

Kind regards,
XXXX
_________________________________________________________
Note: the customer for the first project didn't use any specific setup. Their files simply would not open with my SDL/TRADOS CATs but only with MemoQ.


Now, the question is: is SDL aware of all these issues affecting their own proprietary platforms? How is it possible to grant compatibility between two CATS and then having issues like these? Most important, is there any solution to these issues? I bought the software because i was sure there wouldn't be issues but issues of late have become frequent. Customers complain that they can't open files, or they can't cleanup etc. It's upsetting, as it is upsetting the fact that no one provides feedback.



Thanks in advance for any feedback provided

Enrico C.


[Edited at 2012-06-27 09:17 GMT]


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pgschreier  Identity Verified
Switzerland
Local time: 20:03
German to English
Also had client complaints Jun 27, 2012

I, too, have had client complaints when I took a .TTX file and translated it with Studio. Despite the fact that Trados claims the two packages are totally compatible, my clients CAN tell the difference -- and absolutely insist I use Workbench (when I would prefer to use Studio).

I haven't lost any money (yet) due to this aspect, but I am constantly bouncing back and forth between Workbench and Studio, maintaining dual TMs and termbases, etc. It's a pain!

PLEASE, SDL, find a way to make these inconsistencies go away!!


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Stanislav Pokorny  Identity Verified
Czech Republic
Local time: 20:03
English to Czech
+ ...
Segmentation differences? Jun 27, 2012

Hi Enrico,
if you receive TTX files that have been prepared for you by an agency, there should be absolutely no problems, because you receive the document already segmented.

If you receive source files in their native format (e.g. DOC, HTML, XML or any other) and use TagEditor or the TTXIt! App to create the TTX file(s), the segmentation will be correct too.

[Upraveno: 2012-06-27 10:03 GMT]


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Enrico C - ECLC  Identity Verified
Taiwan
Local time: 03:03
Member (2011)
English to Italian
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All true, in theory! Jun 27, 2012

Stanislav Pokorny wrote:

Hi Enrico,
if you receive TTX files that have been prepared for you by an agency, there should be absolutely no problems, because you receive the document already segmented.

If you receive source files in their native format (e.g. DOC, HTML, XML or any other) and use TagEditor or the TTXIt! App to create the TTX file(s), the segmentation will be correct too.

[Upraveno: 2012-06-27 10:03 GMT]


Hi Stanislav,

First of all thanks for your reply. However things are not working as they should with this CAT. What you say is all true, in theory. In practice i lost the two projects.
Project one came in form of 3 XML.TTX files. None of them would open with Trados 2007, Studio 2009 SP3 or Studio 2001 SP1. This issue was reported here (http://www.proz.com/forum/sdl_trados_support/227339-error_40005_unknown_exception_studio_2011_sp3.html).
To exclude file issues i downloaded a copy of MemoQ, installed and ran the files on that, setup a project, imported the TM and tested one file. It worked like charm. However, while i was trying for solutions, the Project Manager had already removed me from the project (They were translating a lot of words in just a few days with me in charge for part of translating and the whole proofreading stage) so they couldn't waste time. Reply was "Studio 2011 is not compatible with Trados 2007 and regularly causes issues".

Project two: was booked two months ago. Asked the PM to drop me some samples files to check compatibility and got a go ahead. But yesterday, last minute, PM told me i was out of the project due to consistent issues of compatibility between 2007 and Studio (2009/2011). Of course i complained, and the reply is the one you got in the previous post. Essentially they don't want people using Studio 2011 when they have to carry out huge projects with million words and multiple languages because the two software have quite a few incompatibilities and they don't seem to like multiplatforms due to the compatibility issues their cause.

Let me now reply to some of your other statements.

SEGMENTATION:
I get regular jobs in INX files and other simple XML files. Most times segmentation is perfect. As often segmentation is completely messed up in Studio but when opened into TagEditor the whole text is in perfect order (This has happened quite a few times since 2009, not just once, let's say 30% of the times to be conservative). I think Studio should allow for INI files to be used. I think the difference is there. I know the logics beihind Studio not using INI files etc. However it's obviously not working with more complex file formats. And them preventing people from amending the source is making things worse, much much worse, as it is the useless merge segments function that to me has a quirky logics (It never works...and i didn't investigate..but i am sure there is a complex technical explanation on why i can't merge multiple segments into one).
WORD COUNTS:
I almost lost another project two months ago. Customer was quoted by agency for 17000 words and my Studio counted 19900. However also my Trados 2007 counted more or less 17000. I asked for explanations and the project manager got upset and threatened to reallocate the project to someone who didn't have "all these problems".
GENERAL COMPATIBILITY ISSUES:
Customer nr.3 (many emails available to prove this). Keeps sending me files generated with 2007. I open, translate, save to target and deliver. Perfect workflow. 5 minutes later i get an email telling me need to clean the file myself (when feasible) because they can't cleanup or simply can't open the file. This has happened dozens of times not just once.

Now i don't like dramas, and i'd like this to be constructive but honestly using this software (which i like) makes me feel rejected by the industry. I mean, customers treat me as if i was working with a threat rather than with a software that's supposed to be top notch.

Read the email they dropped me and you can feel the tone. This had never happened before. And i have other emails with Project Managers literally telling me "Enrico, either you use TadEditor or i will be forced to reallocate this job". This has happened in two occasions already. At the beginning i thought it was a special case. Now my understanding is they don't want people to use Studio 2011.

But thanks for your intervention.

Enrico


[Edited at 2012-06-27 11:22 GMT]

[Edited at 2012-06-27 11:32 GMT]


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Enrico C - ECLC  Identity Verified
Taiwan
Local time: 03:03
Member (2011)
English to Italian
+ ...
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That happens regularly.... Jun 27, 2012

pgschreier wrote:

I, too, have had client complaints when I took a .TTX file and translated it with Studio. Despite the fact that Trados claims the two packages are totally compatible, my clients CAN tell the difference -- and absolutely insist I use Workbench (when I would prefer to use Studio).

I haven't lost any money (yet) due to this aspect, but I am constantly bouncing back and forth between Workbench and Studio, maintaining dual TMs and termbases, etc. It's a pain!

PLEASE, SDL, find a way to make these inconsistencies go away!!



...to me. But i never filed any complaint simply because the PMs never made a huge drama about it. I wasn't losing time or money, they were happy about the jobs although making me notice my files had regular troubles..but to date i didn't post simply because the issue didn't seem so bad to make me lose money. I am overall happy about the software and all the rest. It genuinely allows me to streamline and deliver quicker and safer than the old dinosaurs like TagEditor etc. However its interplatform bugs are really affecting my workflow and what's worse that of my customers. And end customers aren't happy either, as far as i know. Some complained about the same compatibility issue. If so many people complain there must be a reason.

So i think SDL should put a patch on this.


[Edited at 2012-06-27 11:24 GMT]


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Stanislav Pokorny  Identity Verified
Czech Republic
Local time: 20:03
English to Czech
+ ...
Strange indeed Jun 27, 2012

Hi Enrico,
thank you for your very informative reply. All that you have described is very strange. I've used Studio since it Beta releases in March 2009 and while the first official releases Studio 2009 still had all sorts of bugs and glitches, I never experienced problems with TTX files in Studio 2011. Not with a single client, and I participate in very complex workflows as well.

What strikes me is that:
in Project one "None of them (three files) would open with Trados 2007 (my emphasis), Studio 2009 SP3 or Studio 2001 SP1.

and that the PM's reply was:
"Studio 2011 is not compatible with Trados 2007 and regularly causes issues".

This suggests that they could open the file in T2007 while you couldn't. This in turn suggests that the problem may have been with the file itself and/or with the different TagEditor versions (build numbers).

Project two: was booked two months ago. Asked the PM to drop me some samples files to check compatibility and got a go ahead. But yesterday, last minute, PM told me i was out of the project due to consistent issues of compatibility between 2007 and Studio (2009/2011). Of course i complained, and the reply is the one you got in the previous post. Essentially they don't want people using Studio 2011 when they have to carry out huge projects with million words and multiple languages because the two software have quite a few incompatibilities and they don't seem to like multiplatforms due to the compatibility issues their cause.

I can't really tell without knowing what exactly the issue is that the PMs experience. Simply saying that format "A" is incompatible with tool "B" not a very descriptive explanation.


SEGMENTATION:
I get regular jobs in INX files and other simple XML files. Most times segmentation is perfect. As often segmentation is completely messed up in Studio but when opened into TagEditor the whole text is in perfect order (This has happened quite a few times since 2009, not just once, let's say 30% of the times to be conservative).

This is why I suggested that you used the TTX > SDLXLIFF > TTX workflow, with TTXIt! to convert source files to TTX to avoid any segmentation issues. This has worked for me perfectly.

WORD COUNTS:
I almost lost another project two months ago. Customer was quoted by agency for 17000 words and my Studio counted 19900. However also my Trados 2007 counted more or less 17000. I asked for explanations and the project manager got upset and threatened to reallocate the project to someone who didn't have "all these problems".

Well, wordcounts very much depend on your filter settings. Studio can exctract more translatable content than Studio 2007. So the easy help would be to make sure that your document filter settings in Studio are identical to those in T2007.
However, there's also the matching algorithm that is different in Studio from what it was in T2007 and there's nothing you can do about this.


GENERAL COMPATIBILITY ISSUES:
Customer nr.3 (many emails available to prove this). Keeps sending me files generated with 2007. I open, translate, save to target and deliver. Perfect workflow. 5 minutes later i get an email telling me need to clean the file myself (when feasible) because they can't cleanup or simply can't open the file. This has happened dozens of times not just once.

Can't comment on this; never happened to me.

[Upraveno: 2012-06-27 12:22 GMT]


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Mirjam Spekking  Identity Verified
Netherlands
Local time: 20:03
English to Dutch
+ ...
Similar complaints from some clients Jun 27, 2012

I have had similar complaints from one major client. They either cannot open ttx.files translated in Studio 2011, or they look different, or the target files look different. Only recently in a target file there were sections not included, although they were present and translated in the ttx.

What I now do as a matter of course: first I open and save the ttx.files in Tageditor, or, if I get word or other file (not a ttx.file) I generate the ttx.file in Tageditor. Then I translate in 2011, then I save as target (i.e. as ttx) and then I again open it in tageditor, where I can see the relevant ini.files are used, and then save again in Tageditor. Then I send back the files...

I also think it has sth to do with the ini.files...

I hope SDL will come up with a patch or a different solution someday soon.

Mirjam


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Enrico C - ECLC  Identity Verified
Taiwan
Local time: 03:03
Member (2011)
English to Italian
+ ...
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More details.... Jun 27, 2012

[quote]Stanislav Pokorny wrote:

Hi Stanislav,

Thanks again.


"Studio 2011 is not compatible with Trados 2007 and regularly causes issues".

This suggests that they could open the file in T2007 while you couldn't. This in turn suggests that the problem may have been with the file itself and/or with the different TagEditor versions (build numbers).


I assume they generated the files with and for Studio 2009 as for project one i was asked to try 2009 first (i use 2011) and then TagEditor. Then i was asked a set of screenshots showing the problem. I dropped Screenshots of Studio (Both versions), and Screenshots of MemoQ with file open and almost all translated. Didn't attach screenshots of TagEditor because as i clicked on OPEN i could have TagEditor crashing to desktop (Never did this before). Yes, files did have some setting that my 3 CATs didn't like but WHY DID MEMOQ OPEN THEM flawlessly and translated them so smoothly?


I can't really tell without knowing what exactly the issue is that the PMs experience. Simply saying that format "A" is incompatible with tool "B" not a very descriptive explanation.

For project one there is a copy of the error message in the other thread i created (see link in previous replies to you). It was error 40005 (Associated to different issues depending on the user as i investigated a little before posting). PM experience in this very case is equal to 0. The point is the company has a specific technical dept in charge for tackling with these issues and streamlining process. The decision to exclude me wasn't made a PM level but at senior tech level. They considered Studio 2011 a hassle rather than an asset as it causes regular issues with big projects (They said in the case i mentioned and i inferred in other cases). It is true before their techs would fix issues in snap. So i don't know what the issue really is. But i do get complaints from multiple customers. This is a sign compatibility is not so flawless.



SEGMENTATION:
This is why I suggested that you used the TTX > SDLXLIFF > TTX workflow, with TTXIt! to convert source files to TTX to avoid any segmentation issues. This has worked for me perfectly.


But i do that when i get sources that are not TTX. I use TTXit and generate the file. Other times i open them on TagEditor and generate them. But in these cases i am getting ready made TTXs that i should simply open, translate, confirm, do the QA and then resend. When they get the files their techs have regular issues of compatibility. I don't know what the issue is in detail.


WORD COUNTS:
Well, wordcounts very much depend on your filter settings. Studio can exctract more translatable content than Studio 2007. So the easy help would be to make sure that your document filter settings in Studio are identical to those in T2007.
However, there's also the matching algorithm that is different in Studio from what it was in T2007 and there's nothing you can do about this.


Default settings on all CATs. Never changed them because they are not a priority.



Can't comment on this; never happened to me.

[Upraveno: 2012-06-27 12:22 GMT]


It happens often to me. It simply never caused such a big hassle to have me posting here. PMs seemed to be able to sort it out. Now the scenario has changed.

But many thanks for your help. It's appreciated.

Enrico


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Enrico C - ECLC  Identity Verified
Taiwan
Local time: 03:03
Member (2011)
English to Italian
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Interesting solution! Jun 27, 2012

Mirjam Spekking wrote:

I have had similar complaints from one major client. They either cannot open ttx.files translated in Studio 2011, or they look different, or the target files look different. Only recently in a target file there were sections not included, although they were present and translated in the ttx.

What I now do as a matter of course: first I open and save the ttx.files in Tageditor, or, if I get word or other file (not a ttx.file) I generate the ttx.file in Tageditor. Then I translate in 2011, then I save as target (i.e. as ttx) and then I again open it in tageditor, where I can see the relevant ini.files are used, and then save again in Tageditor. Then I send back the files...

I also think it has sth to do with the ini.files...

I hope SDL will come up with a patch or a different solution someday soon.

Mirjam


Hi Mirjam,

This is an interesting solution that makes sense considering the incompatibilities. Just bear in mind two unrelated points:

A) In one project files wouldn't open with any CAT except MEMOQ (TagEditor would crash to desktop, Studio 2009/2011 would generate an error message).
B) Your procedure is smart and i am pretty confident it works (Will try for sake of science). However, isn't Studio supposed to quicken these things? Once we have to perform all these operations and still rely on TagEditor to convert files or to make them work properly on Studio then we can do it on the dinosaur (TagEditor), straightaway.

But i think your solution makes a lot of sense, because it allows for the creation of files with the INI settings that then Studio should be able to read.

I think SDL owes us a patch though. This should not happen under normal circumstances. What i need is a CAT where i open files and translate straightaway. Having to perform all these operations is time consuming.

However, i owe you a big thank for the suggestion.

Regards

Enrico


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SDL Community  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 20:03
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Can I see a file that does this? Jun 27, 2012

Enrico C - ECLC wrote:

I think SDL owes us a patch though. This should not happen under normal circumstances. What i need is a CAT where i open files and translate straightaway. Having to perform all these operations is time consuming.



Hi Enrico,

It's very difficult to consider what the patch would be for without being able to reproduce the problem. You've heard from Stanislav who handles a lot of these and all without problems, and there are plenty of users doing this every day also without problems.

If you can send me the files and explain how to reproduce the problem (although it sounds as though simply trying to open them should do the trick) then we'll happily take a look and if there is a problem we'll fix it. But at the moment what exactly should the patch do?

Regards

Paul
pfilkin@sdl.com


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Enrico C - ECLC  Identity Verified
Taiwan
Local time: 03:03
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Will ask the PM Jun 28, 2012

Hi Paul,

Thanks for the reply. I will ask the Project Manager if those files can be sent to SDL for further check and if i get a permit you'll get the 3 of them. These will be the files that didn't open with TagEditor 2007, Studio 2009 and Studio 2011 in TMX.TTX format.

For the other project, as you may have read, files worked but i was taken out simply because they didn't want to have anything to do with Studio at large apparently.

Will be back to you ASAP.

Regards

Enrico


SDL Support wrote:

Enrico C - ECLC wrote:

I think SDL owes us a patch though. This should not happen under normal circumstances. What i need is a CAT where i open files and translate straightaway. Having to perform all these operations is time consuming.



Hi Enrico,

It's very difficult to consider what the patch would be for without being able to reproduce the problem. You've heard from Stanislav who handles a lot of these and all without problems, and there are plenty of users doing this every day also without problems.

If you can send me the files and explain how to reproduce the problem (although it sounds as though simply trying to open them should do the trick) then we'll happily take a look and if there is a problem we'll fix it. But at the moment what exactly should the patch do?

Regards

Paul
pfilkin@sdl.com


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Enrico C - ECLC  Identity Verified
Taiwan
Local time: 03:03
Member (2011)
English to Italian
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Update Jun 28, 2012

Hi Enrico,

It's very difficult to consider what the patch would be for without being able to reproduce the problem. You've heard from Stanislav who handles a lot of these and all without problems, and there are plenty of users doing this every day also without problems.

If you can send me the files and explain how to reproduce the problem (although it sounds as though simply trying to open them should do the trick) then we'll happily take a look and if there is a problem we'll fix it. But at the moment what exactly should the patch do?

Regards

Paul
pfilkin@sdl.com
[/quote]

Hi Paul,

Due to the usual NDA agreement they are not eager to give me the file unfortunately. I am waiting on a possible technical report from their techs where they should specify the issues they had and another reply to understand if i can have them in touch with you on this; this is if you are eager too. I guess at that stage they may give you the file..i am not sure.

However, i do have a set of screenshots showing the error on Studio 2009/2011 and then the file regularly open on MemoQ. No screenshots on TagEditor. It would crash to desktop straightaway.
Will post news on this thread or will send an email only if i have workable news.



Thanks

Enrico

[Edited at 2012-06-28 12:29 GMT]


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