TM (What are "clean" vs. "unclean" files?)
Thread poster: Bernadette Mora

Bernadette Mora  Identity Verified
Spain
Local time: 13:48
Member (2004)
English to Spanish
+ ...
Oct 14, 2004

Here again with my troubles with Trados!
I am translating several Word-files using Trados. These Word-files were in a folder.
Now the customer has sent me a note saying:
"Pls deliver clean+uncleaned+updated TM".
What's this?
Thanks for your comments.
Regards,
Bernadette


[Subject edited by staff or moderator 2004-10-14 19:33]


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RWSTranslation
Germany
Local time: 13:48
Member (2007)
German to English
+ ...
Clean, uncleaned, TM Oct 14, 2004

Hello,

after translation the files should include the source text and the target text in a translation unit structere. These are the uncleaned files.

The TM should be updated (expanded) with your translation.

After the translation you can use the clean function of the Workbench to delete the source text. Then the files are cleaned.

With kind regards

Hans


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xxxBrandis
Local time: 13:48
English to German
+ ...
clean, unclean TM Oct 14, 2004

Bernadette Mora wrote:


Here again with my troubles with Trados!
I am translating several Word-files using Trados. These Word-files were in a folder.
Now the customer has sent me a note saying:
"Pls deliver clean+uncleaned+updated TM".
What's this?
Thanks for your comments.
Regards,
Bernadette
Hi! unclean files are segmented bilingual files. I normally deliver them only upon reaching an agreement prior to beginning the translation, this applies for the TM as well. As TM and unclean files represent extended products of a translation. But if you have recd. a TM along with the source document, it could also mean updation, which is you are not generating a new TM
Rgds,
Brandis


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Fernando Toledo  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 13:48
German to Spanish
My way to organize it Oct 14, 2004

When a finish a translation a save the doc as: XXX_DE_ES_Toledo_unclean.doc, and as:
XXX_DE_ES_Toledo_clean.doc.
(sometimes with date too, depends the client)

So I have 2 identical docs.
After that, a clean the "clean" doc and let other one (unclean) just like it is.

So I can send both.

Other point is to create a TM for each client (with filter settings). I do not understand how people use only one (getting bigger and bigger) for all clients, that is not rationally, you have no advantage, only problems cause the size.

Toledo


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xxxBrandis
Local time: 13:48
English to German
+ ...
unclean file actually is not necessary Oct 14, 2004

Toledo wrote:

When a finish a translation a save the doc as: XXX_DE_ES_Toledo_unclean.doc, and as:
XXX_DE_ES_Toledo_clean.doc.
(sometimes with date too, depends the client)

So I have 2 identical docs.
After that, a clean the "clean" doc and let other one (unclean) just like it is.

So I can send both.

Other point is to create a TM for each client (with filter settings). I do not understand how people use only one (getting bigger and bigger) for all clients, that is not rationally, you have no advantage, only problems cause the size.

Toledo
Yes, for the customer it has lesser importance. Because he/ she has a source (his original file) and translation, he can extract the TM content himself. In my experience generally most of the far eastern agencies request all files, translation, TM and the unclean file. What could be the purpose I wonder, but they pay only for the translation. On the otherhand an ever increasing TM would obviously have same or similar DTD / filter settings, otherwise there would be less sence in generating and maintaining a TM
Rgds,
Brandis


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Fernando Toledo  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 13:48
German to Spanish
Not so simple... Oct 14, 2004

Brandis wrote:

]Yes, for the customer it has lesser importance. Because he/ she has a source (his original file) and translation, he can extract the TM content himself
Brandis


Hi,
well, if you only send only the cleaned file they can use Winalign to update the TM, but that cost time. The reason to send a uncleaned file is normally to update another TM with different filter settings (I speak about complex setting that some companies required).

For some companies it ist important to get a exactly definion from where a segment is coming from. Like which product, for what section (sales, marketing, etc.) which product version, mechanic, electricity, computing...
On the otherhand an ever increasing TM would obviously have same or similar DTD / filter settings,


DTD has nothing to do with filter settings.
Filter settings can you update, for example if you have a TM from Siemens where you had already translated some electrical devices, then if you get a new job, for example a NONAME device, it is important to introduce a new filter with this name, I use to put the chapters of the manual too.

For me is no problem to send uncleaned files, why not?, my work is the time I work not more not less.


Gruß

[Edited at 2004-10-14 20:35]


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xxxBrandis
Local time: 13:48
English to German
+ ...
that is a considerable thought Oct 14, 2004

Toledo wrote:

Brandis wrote:

]Yes, for the customer it has lesser importance. Because he/ she has a source (his original file) and translation, he can extract the TM content himself
Brandis


Hi,
well, if you only send only the cleaned file they can use Winalign to update the TM, but that cost time. The reason to send a uncleaned file is normally to update another TM with different filter settings (I speak about complex setting that some companies required).

For some companies it ist important to get a exactly definion from where a segment is coming from. Like which product, for what section (sales, marketing, etc.) which product version, mechanic, electricity, computing...
On the otherhand an ever increasing TM would obviously have same or similar DTD / filter settings,


DTD has nothing to do with filter settings.
Filter settings can you update, for example if you have a TM from Siemens where you had already translated some electrical devices, then if you get a new job, for example a NONAME device, it is important to introduce a new filter with this name, I use to put the chapters of the manual too.

For me is no problem to send uncleaned files, why not?, my work is the time I work not more not less.


Gruß

[Edited at 2004-10-14 20:35]
HI! Thank you for the Aufklärung, but if the outsourcer needs a translation, I deliver a translation and not unclean and TM as well. After all the TM ( which I had generated) is supposed to make my work easy. So I normally sell the TM at a marginal price. Unclean file is no problem. But if the outsourcer comes with a very low payment and overnight work, demanding he needs translation, TM and unclean file, that still represents some additional work, which has to be paid for. That´s the way I think atleast. The situation is certainly different, if the pricing fits at a better level, I understand an all-in-one price, as there still be a post-receival adjustment of the TM to be taken care of on the part of the outsourcer. I normally limit my quotation to translation work only, the rest comes on a separate extended request, which is to be met in written form. Now imageine, there is an outsourcer with a TM server, and you can logon to that server just like a client /translator, you wouldn´t have to develop either a TM or an unclean file, the rest is obvious as the outsourcer would have perfect control over all activity and that leads normally to a price kill. I don´t think anybody would like that.
Rgds,
Brandis


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RWSTranslation
Germany
Local time: 13:48
Member (2007)
German to English
+ ...
Werkvertragsrecht Oct 14, 2004

Hello Brandis,

normally i think you (because you work in Germany) work on base of the German "Werkvertragsrecht". Then your customer has the right to get all things or results which was produced by the order. This includes the translation memory and all other partial results of the translation.

Please correct me if i'm wrong

Have a good night

Hans


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xxxBrandis
Local time: 13:48
English to German
+ ...
production vs. Service units Oct 14, 2004

DSC wrote:

Hello Brandis,

normally i think you (because you work in Germany) work on base of the German "Werkvertragsrecht". Then your customer has the right to get all things or results which was produced by the order. This includes the translation memory and all other partial results of the translation.

Please correct me if i'm wrong

Have a good night

Hans
Hi! If I go to a Schumacher and get my shoes done, I am not taking his instruments and knowledge, which he dearly had customized for himself and maintains them. This argument may not the situation well, similarly it fits lesser to translation industry area. Where agencies and translators can communicate it is only right to mention the total scope and requirement of a project and reach an understanding. If you consider the number of hours you put into customizing your tools and accessories for your purpose, you wouldn´t be sacrificing either. Which advantages does an agency have in demanding the unclean and updated TM, that were not mentioned prior to beginning, and how would it be profiting from it, and why can´t they pay for the benefit they are getting through you. Irgendeine Vertragsform ist notwendig, damit man sich verträgt, sind wir alle etwa ein Selbstopfer. I do not mean that the work involved in this is enormous, but that really depends upon the scope of a project.
Rgds,
Brandis


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Parrot  Identity Verified
Spain
Local time: 13:48
Member (2002)
Spanish to English
+ ...
Clean vs. unclean Oct 14, 2004

Bernadette Mora wrote:

Here again with my troubles with Trados!
I am translating several Word-files using Trados. These Word-files were in a folder.
Now the customer has sent me a note saying:
"Pls deliver clean+uncleaned+updated TM".
What's this?
Thanks for your comments.
Regards,
Bernadette


The clean files are your product after cleaning. If they need the unclean ones as well, rename the *.baks (or send them; the client will know what to do with them).

The "updated TM" presumes you received a set of files with the extensions *.iix, *.mdf, *.mtf, *.mwf and *.tmw (always keep a backup of the originals). Send these files back after the cleaning.

There are, of course, other ways of extracting/updating the TM. If you rename the *.baks and send them and the client processes them, his TM will be updated (sometimes more convenient if the TM has grown to over 6 megas).


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Heinrich Pesch  Identity Verified
Finland
Local time: 14:48
Member (2003)
Finnish to German
+ ...
Clean the file with a new TM Oct 15, 2004

Do not send all your working TM, as it could have a lot of prior work in it that the new customer has no rights what so ever for. So befor cleaning the file(s) start with a new, empty TM, so the customer will get only the segments belonging to that job.
Workfast creates always a new file with extension .bak when cleaning up.


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RWSTranslation
Germany
Local time: 13:48
Member (2007)
German to English
+ ...
Example Oct 15, 2004

Brandis wrote:
Hi! If I go to a Schumacher and get my shoes done, I am not taking his instruments and knowledge, which he dearly had customized for himself and maintains them. ....


Hello Brandis,
the example isn\'t good, because you don#t give your Trados version and yopu brain to the customer.

Normal case is: You will get an order form me. I sent you the for Trados prepared files, reference files, a specific TM, maybe a terminology database. Your job is to translate the files with Trados and the i think it is no problem for you to send me all work files back. Normally i don\'t expect to get uncleaned files, because approx. 70 % of all translations will done by TagEditor and i use the ttx files for reconvert the translation into the source format.

If you send only the ceaned files, i maybe have a lot of trouble to make corrections of the translation or of the tag structure.

Take another example:
You buy a new house from a company. Tehe company builds the house and say here you can take it, but you will not get the plans of the house. Is this correct?

With kind regards
Hans


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xxxBrandis
Local time: 13:48
English to German
+ ...
TM updation Oct 15, 2004

DSC wrote:

Brandis wrote:
Hi! If I go to a Schumacher and get my shoes done, I am not taking his instruments and knowledge, which he dearly had customized for himself and maintains them. ....


Hello Brandis,
the example isn't good, because you don#t give your Trados version and yopu brain to the customer.

Normal case is: You will get an order form me. I sent you the for Trados prepared files, reference files, a specific TM, maybe a terminology database. Your job is to translate the files with Trados and the i think it is no problem for you to send me all work files back. Normally i don't expect to get uncleaned files, because approx. 70 % of all translations will done by TagEditor and i use the ttx files for reconvert the translation into the source format.

If you send only the ceaned files, i maybe have a lot of trouble to make corrections of the translation or of the tag structure.

Take another example:
You buy a new house from a company. Tehe company builds the house and say here you can take it, but you will not get the plans of the house. Is this correct?

With kind regards
Hans
Hi! There is a misunderstanding here I feel, I was not talking about an already available TM delivered by the agency, but more about a situation (a) where the translation has been done and delivered and the outsourcer wants unclean files and the TM at a later date (b) where the agency doesn´t deliver their own TM model or a base TM and also about a situation where the price is very low.

Even in the case of an architectural plan of a house, it is normally done by an architect, in germany these are separate offices, construction companies normally co-operate or have their own architects. So that marginal effort has a marginal price. The client is free to get his idea designed by an architect ( at a marginal price, I hope you know the situation of Planararchitekten in Germany, many are freelancing people and hardly manage a good income) and later get the house finished by a constuction house. By the way lately some west german company had offered me TMs for different disciplines priced at €477,- for 50,000 Terms, so I guess the tendency is growing now in a differnt direction.
Gruß,
Brandis


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Graciela Carlyle  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 12:48
English to Spanish
+ ...
excuse my ignorance... Oct 15, 2004

Brandis wrote: TM updation


I have been using CAT tools for a few years now (mainly Wordfast) and never heard of it...what is TM updation?

Cheers,
Grace.


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xxxBrandis
Local time: 13:48
English to German
+ ...
TM updation Oct 16, 2004

Graciela Carlyle wrote:

Brandis wrote: TM updation


I have been using CAT tools for a few years now (mainly Wordfast) and never heard of it...what is TM updation?

Cheers,
Grace.
Hello Grace, It is is a cross-TM compliancy philosophy and to fulfil this seamlessly as there are many CAT -tools, may be I need to learn something here. That is what they all talk about at the WWW.LISA.ORG, I am slightly surprised to hear a question about this. I also think that we are slightly off the track.
Best Regards,
Brandis


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