Trados analysis possible after translation?
Thread poster: Annette Scheulen

Annette Scheulen  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 11:33
English to German
+ ...
Nov 3, 2004

Is there any way to do a Trados analysis after the translation to prove the percentage figures? When I do the normal analysis, all I get is 100% matches, of course, since the job has already been done, and the matches are stored in the translation memory.

After I translated two manuals for an agency, they told me that the difference between the two manuals was only 11 lines (approx. 110 words). I can easily tell by the time it took me to do the second translation and by my marks in the source text that even the no-match parts were far more than that, let alone all the fuzzy matches. I did not do a Trados analysis before the translation because it had been expressly agreed with the agency that no discounts would be made but that I would only be using Trados to convert DTP files before I bought Trados for this agency. As soon as I had bought this expensive program, however, the agency owner went back on his word and demanded discounts.

Although unfair because it had been expressly agreed otherwise, even a "normal" Trados discount would be better than this ridiculous figure of 11 lines. I still have the uncleaned files where the percentage is indicated for each translation unit, so I can prove the work I did. But it would be extremely tedious to count everything by hand. Is there any way to automate this?


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Ralf Lemster  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 11:33
English to German
+ ...
Comparative analysis Nov 3, 2004

Hi Annette,
What you can do is a comparative analyis of the two documents:

- Make sure none of the documents contains revision marks.
- Analyse the first version - don't close the dialogue when finished.
- Check the Use TM from previous analysis box.
- Remove the analysed file from the list box - add the second version.
- Run an analysis.

The results will be equivalent to the delta between both documents.

HTH, Ralf


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xxxBrandis
Local time: 11:33
English to German
+ ...
I think there is Nov 3, 2004

Hi! What if you take your original source file again and take an analysis, using a brand new TM, not the one which already has the Terminology. That should be fairly simple. You should get the orignal untranslated match analysis. But to avoid this trouble I have developed a habit of taking the analysis first before starting the translation and another post translation analysis done for internal purposes.
Rgds,
Brandis

[Edited at 2004-11-03 09:57]


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Fernando Toledo  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 11:33
German to Spanish
No comprendo amigo Nov 3, 2004

Brandis wrote:

Hi! What if you take your original source file again and take an analysis, using a brand new TM, not the one which already has the Terminology. That should be fairly simple. You should get the orignal untranslated match analysis.
Rgds,
Brandis

[Edited at 2004-11-03 09:57]


with a empty TM? to count what? am I missing something?

Rgds


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xxxBrandis
Local time: 11:33
English to German
+ ...
What I mean is Nov 3, 2004

Hi Toledo,
Here is an option if I understand right. One can take a source file analysis without TM, one gets how many are repeated fully once, which is a 100% match and 1 repeat. Take a source file and generate a TM without terminology in it. Certainly the situation would be different, if the outsourcer supplies you with a TM, then you can take an source against it to take an analysis. Not very complicated.
Brandis


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Lise Smidth  Identity Verified
Austria
Local time: 11:33
German to Danish
+ ...
It does make sense :) Nov 3, 2004

Toledo wrote:

with a empty TM? to count what? am I missing something?



to count the repetitions. In this case it really makes sense, because the client didn't argue, that the text were similar to texts from former jobs - only that the two texts were almost identical.

I do that all the time (more or less) - I have en empty TM
and use it whenever I get jobs with repetitive texts to see if the client might want price reduction when the work has been done. It is also a good way for me to know, about how much work is coming up with a certain amount of files.

best regards
lise


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Annette Scheulen  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 11:33
English to German
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
It worked Nov 3, 2004

Hi all,

Thank you very much for your replies and suggestions.

I tried Ralf’s comparative analysis and, lo and behold, it worked! This gives me 243 lines, a lot of them "no match"—that’s not what I consider practically identical. Pretty far from 11 lines, that’s for sure.

Lise Smidth wrote:

the client didn't argue, that the text were similar to texts from former jobs - only that the two texts were almost identical.


Yes, he did. In addition to insisting on the difference being only 11 lines, the agency says that 40% or even 65% of the first manual could be taken from my translation memory (i.e. from previous manuals). Now there were some parts of the text that were not new, but not that much. I’ve meanwhile found something helpful: a backup copy of the translation memory I made a few weeks before I got those last two manuals, and it contains those parts that could be recycled. So I did a Trados analysis: 100% matches: 16%, no match: 52%! It seems the agency deducted not only the 100% matches but also all the fuzzy matches.

The agency’s demands are so unreasonable in every respect that I cannot help the feeling that they just want to get around paying me.


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Ralf Lemster  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 11:33
English to German
+ ...
Lines vs. words Nov 3, 2004

Hi again,
Glad it worked - just bear in mind that Trados analyses are not based on lines, but on words.

Best, Ralf


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Annette Scheulen  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 11:33
English to German
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Lines vs. words Nov 3, 2004

Ralf,

You're right--but what can I do about that?


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Ralf Lemster  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 11:33
English to German
+ ...
Convert it... Nov 3, 2004

The Trados analysis also indicates the total number of characters (bear in mind that this is excluding spaces, so you will need to add the number of words minus one...), which allows you to calculate a number of lines.

HTH, Ralf


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xxxBrandis
Local time: 11:33
English to German
+ ...
nice tip Nov 3, 2004

thank you Ralf, that was really good.
Brandis


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Annette Scheulen  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 11:33
English to German
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Number of characters? Nov 3, 2004

Ralf,

Where does the Trados analysis indicate the number of characters? Mine doesn’t. I’ve got four columns in the Trados analysis window: Match types, Segments, Words, Percent--that’s it. Or are you talking about the counting function in TagEditor?

But do you really believe that this could account for such a huge difference? I don’t think so. I just applied the Trados percentages to lines instead of words.

Regards and thanks for all your help,
Annette


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Ralf Lemster  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 11:33
English to German
+ ...
Analyse total Nov 3, 2004

hi Annette,
Where does the Trados analysis indicate the number of characters? Mine doesn’t. I’ve got four columns in the Trados analysis window: Match types, Segments, Words, Percent--that’s it.

Have a look at the log file - this also includes a section entitled Analyse Total, which comprises the total number of characters, and the average number of characters per word.

But do you really believe that this could account for such a huge difference? I don’t think so. I just applied the Trados percentages to lines instead of words.

That should be ok, too.

Best, Ralf


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Annette Scheulen  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 11:33
English to German
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Great Nov 5, 2004

Dear Ralf,

Thank you very much for pointing me to the log file, as it provides me with a detailed proof of all I’ve done, which I may need for legal proceedings.

You see, I translated Interleaf files that I converted with Trados. The agency had promised me that I would be paid in full and that they would send me converted Word files after the translation so that I could make out my invoice based on the word count of those Word files. However, I’ve never received any of those Word files; they just gave me the figures. I checked them using the counting function in TagEditor though and found that even the TagEditor count (which does not include repetitions, numerals, etc.) was more than the figures they gave me for those two manuals in question. Well, since there were in fact some repetitions and a few old parts that could be used, I assumed they had already deducted something. Since the deductions were reasonable, I went along with that and invoiced according to the figures they gave me. But then they did not accept my invoice and kept demanding far more drastic reductions. When I argued that the figures they had given me could not be the total number of characters, they denied they had deducted anything.

Therefore this total number of characters in the log file is so helpful. It is even higher than the TagEditor count for each of the manuals, and I guess it is because it also includes the repetitions, etc. (is that right?). It should thus be the same as in the Interleaf files that I was originally told would be used as a basis for invoicing. Either the agency did not count all the files, or they deducted something even then.

Ralf Lemster wrote:

bear in mind that this is excluding spaces, so you will need to add the number of words minus one


Why minus one, if I may ask?

I do give discounts if documents are very similar and this has been agreed beforehand, and have done so in the past, but I am not prepared to grant such unreasonable discounts that reduce my work of a whole week to practically nothing.

Unfortunately, the agency is not even willing to negotiate and hung up on me when I tried to. But I guess this would be a topic for "Money matters."

Regards,
Annette


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Ralf Lemster  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 11:33
English to German
+ ...
BlueBoard rather than MM... Nov 5, 2004

Hi Annette,
Ralf Lemster wrote:

bear in mind that this is excluding spaces, so you will need to add the number of words minus one


Why minus one, if I may ask?

Adding the number of words is based on the assumption that words are separated by spaces. Obviously, there's one space less... yes, I know, it's not exactly a scientific method.


Unfortunately, the agency is not even willing to negotiate and hung up on me when I tried to. But I guess this would be a topic for "Money matters."

Specific outsourcers should not be discussed in the forum - use the BlueBoard instead.

Best regards,
Ralf


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