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Proposal for slowing down heated threads
Thread poster: Arnaud HERVE

ViktoriaG  Identity Verified
Canada
Local time: 01:41
English to French
+ ...
American football Mar 9, 2009

Sorry if my analogy with streakers and American football wasn't clear enough. By American football, I was designating the sport that people in the United states simply call football, and the rest of the world calls American football, because American football is not actually football. To me, football is what people in North America call soccer. I just felt I needed to specify this to make sure my post is not misunderstood. Streaking is present in many sport disciplines, but I believe it s... See more
Sorry if my analogy with streakers and American football wasn't clear enough. By American football, I was designating the sport that people in the United states simply call football, and the rest of the world calls American football, because American football is not actually football. To me, football is what people in North America call soccer. I just felt I needed to specify this to make sure my post is not misunderstood. Streaking is present in many sport disciplines, but I believe it started with American football, since it has always been a bit closer to the hearts of people in the States (the same status hockey enjoys in Canada).

Charlie, you are in fact thinking of the same thread I was referring to. It's a pity, too, because your post in that thread and the one I wrote in reply to it were a great example of two people with different opinions discussing a topic in a respectful manner. No flattery intended, I like your contributions because although we often disagree, we are still able to discuss things without making it personal and we stay on topic. I have to admit that your posts make me think and they contribute pieces to my puzzle. It's a shame that right after such a demonstration of mutual respect and respect for the thread in general, people felt compelled to spit in our soup (old Hungarian saying).

And yes, devetting a post is more or less the same as hiding it, except that devetting is a more explicit term. Not only it means hiding it, it also means that the powers that be changed their minds about letting it go public (a post has to have been vetted in order to be devetted - posts by paying members are automatically vetted and that's why they display in real time). You are right, there was a time when such posts were simply deleted. I am glad they aren't anymore. Like I said, even rogue posts sometimes have merits, and it is nice to know you can recover such a post and edit it to allow for its reposting.

I agree with you, Charlie, that prevention often goes a much longer way than reacting after the fact. However, I hope you realize that the sheer size of this forum and its nature don't always make that option practical. I think that one of the things that can be done is to allow topic starters to have some control of their threads, and if they abuse of that privilege, they temporarily lose it (they can't start threads on their own). A three strikes and you're out approach seems good to me - although I think you would rather favor five strikes. Just like everybody initially has the privilege to post, which is then taken away if you abuse of the privilege, this could work.

Again, I am just proposing solutions here, but I was so far happy with the system already in place. The only thing I deplore is that moderators sometimes fail to step in when it is the right time. Can't blame it on them, either. We are not in the same time zones, not everybody reports irregularities when they see them and, especially now, there are just not enough moderators to skim through all threads. This is also why I was proposing for the community to lend them a hand, at least by temporarily devetting posts until the moderator has a chance to step in.
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Arnaud HERVE  Identity Verified
France
Local time: 07:41
English to French
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Not sure Mar 10, 2009

I don't know. I am not sure what I should say.

So many people seem convinced that a milder, preventive step would be harsher than a direct sanction. It is a bit surprising.

Also, in the previous pages you will observe that some people reminded us of the strict necessity of respecting the basic rules, and yet in the very same thread some other people get away with direct insult.

I don't know. I am not sure it is very serious to post here.


 

Andrea Riffo  Identity Verified
Chile
Local time: 01:41
English to Spanish
... Mar 10, 2009

Arnaud HERVE wrote:


Or we can have:

2) People who have a life, can leave their computer for a day, prefer to walk outdoors for cooling down, and will wait until they have something useful to say to make an interesting contribution.

[/quote]

If I'm reading you right, Arnaud, you are implying that people who participate regularly/actively in this forum don't have a life. Wouldn't you call that an insulting/uncalled-for remark?


Arnaud HERVE wrote:

2) That the troll is alone in a crowd of normal people. But what do we do if it's normal people that are isolated, and attacked by a swarm of bees that will sting, sting, sting? What is the method against that?



Again, wouldn't you call that a rather unappealing comparison that some might consider an attack?


I am only calling attention to these statements to illustrate that the perception of "insult" or "attack" is utterly subjective, since I doubt that you would criticise what you perceive as aggressive remarks or behaviour while at the same time engaging in such a behaviour yourself.

Greetings
Andrea


 

Andrea Riffo  Identity Verified
Chile
Local time: 01:41
English to Spanish
... Mar 10, 2009

I understand the assumption that we might get more people to participate in the forums if these had a slower pace, and I certainly think that getting input from more members would be a huge plus.

However, IMO the mere exposition of ideas/opinions is only 1/3 of what makes a forum worthwhile. The remaining 2/3 are made by the ensuing discussions, where people get to exchange and contrast different viewpoints, experiences, etc. In my view at least, it is the latter what makes p
... See more
I understand the assumption that we might get more people to participate in the forums if these had a slower pace, and I certainly think that getting input from more members would be a huge plus.

However, IMO the mere exposition of ideas/opinions is only 1/3 of what makes a forum worthwhile. The remaining 2/3 are made by the ensuing discussions, where people get to exchange and contrast different viewpoints, experiences, etc. In my view at least, it is the latter what makes participating in and reading a forum an enriching experience.

Does it get heated at times? yes. Would restricting posting to 1/day ¡mprove the system? In my opinion, NO. I believe that such a measure would inevitably break the natural pace/flow of an ongoing conversation/discussion/exchange and valuable opinions would be left unposted or lost in the middle of a thread, since it would become nearly impossible to answer directly to a specific post (which in turn would make it hard to understand the threads).

Greetings,
Andrea
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Arnaud HERVE  Identity Verified
France
Local time: 07:41
English to French
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Complete quote if relevant Mar 10, 2009

ariffo wrote:

Arnaud HERVE wrote:


Or we can have:

2) People who have a life, can leave their computer for a day, prefer to walk outdoors for cooling down, and will wait until they have something useful to say to make an interesting contribution.



If I'm reading you right, Arnaud, you are implying that people who participate regularly/actively in this forum don't have a life. Wouldn't you call that an insulting/uncalled-for remark?[/quote]

Not really, because you omitted a relevant part of the quote, which everybody can read on page 5:

Arnaud HERVE had written:
Taking two extremes, we can have:


Therefore people who read the complete statement will understand that I described two hypothetical extremes, and for the sake of logical argumentation.


ariffo also wrote:
(...)
I am only calling attention to these statements to illustrate that the perception of "insult" or "attack" is utterly subjective


Yes it can be utterly subjective of course. This is why it seems to me obvious that it is a moderator that has to sanction insults, and not partakers.

ariffo also wrote:
since I doubt that you would criticise what you perceive as aggressive remarks or behaviour while at the same time engaging in such a behaviour yourself.


Sorry I didn't understand that last part.

ariffo also wrote, in his second message:
However, IMO the mere exposition of ideas/opinions is only 1/3 of what makes a forum worthwhile. The remaining 2/3 are made by the ensuing discussions, where people get to exchange and contrast different viewpoints, experiences, etc. In my view at least, it is the latter what makes participating in and reading a forum an enriching experience.


I totally agree. I think slow pace does help that. Slower forums are better to fully develop what you say.

ariffo wrote, in his second message:
I believe that such a measure would inevitably break the natural pace/flow of an ongoing conversation/discussion/exchange and valuable opinions would be left unposted or lost in the middle of a thread, since it would become nearly impossible to answer directly to a specific post (which in turn would make it hard to understand the threads)


Slow is the natural pace for the Forum genre. Even on teenagers gaming forumz you can see that they implement policies to resist "flood", and install chat or irc tools for quick conversation.

For the risk of confusion you mention, there is the Reply with quote tool. I am certain ProZ members have the necessary literacy level to use it properly.


[Edited at 2009-03-10 13:25 GMT]


 

Aniello Scognamiglio  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 07:41
English to German
+ ...
I think, it is time a moderator steps in. Mar 10, 2009

ariffo wrote:

I am only calling attention to these statements to illustrate that the perception of "insult" or "attack" is utterly subjective, since I doubt that you would criticise what you perceive as aggressive remarks or behaviour while at the same time engaging in such a behaviour yourself.

Greetings
Andrea


Exactly my thoughts.

I kindly invite the moderator to step in before this one gets really heated!

The "Attracting people" post is insulting and silly. I kindly invite Arnaud to think about the effect of his post.


 

Tomás Cano Binder, BA, CT  Identity Verified
Spain
Local time: 07:41
Member (2005)
English to Spanish
+ ...
Have you reported this behaviour? Mar 10, 2009

Arnaud HERVE wrote:
- Being compared to an animal for evoking obvious economic trends. Or even animal excrements sometimes.


Have you reported this behaviour to Proz's moderators and staff? Please do! Or if this was rhetoric, please state so in your posting "Attracting people". Thanks a lot!


 

Jared Tabor
Local time: 02:41
SITE STAFF
Locking thread Mar 10, 2009

Thanks everyone for your input here. As the discussion seems to have run itself out and is now heading for less productive waters, I am locking the thread. Thanks for your understanding.

Best regards,

Jared


 
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Proposal for slowing down heated threads

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