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To be absolutely eclectic or to take part without any kind of ambiguities? That is the question...
Thread poster: Pablo Bouvier

Pablo Bouvier  Identity Verified
Local time: 20:04
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Dec 6, 2009

The questions is: Should ProZ be absolutely eclectic and allow that some of ours colleagues discredits the whole translation sector describing senseless behaviours of itself at some forums or should it take part for the translators and the translation sector without any kind of ambiguities?



[Editado a las 2009-12-06 20:30 GMT]


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Edward Potter  Identity Verified
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Clarification, please Dec 7, 2009

The above message is ambiguous to me. I imagine myself translating it...

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KSL Berlin  Identity Verified
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I'm with Edward Dec 7, 2009

Sorry, Pablo. I can't follow you on this one.

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Laurent KRAULAND  Identity Verified
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Seeing some points... Dec 7, 2009

I have some clue about who/what Pablo is pointing at. Obviously, his question is rather broad and general as we cannot name names in public fora. Is there a way out in such cases? I don't know.

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Giles Watson  Identity Verified
Italy
Local time: 20:04
Italian to English
Pablo's point is quite clear Dec 7, 2009

It's also not really an issue.

From the outset, Proz has always defined itself as a market place and, quite logically, it has never set any bar to participation. Over the years, many translators who, like Pablo, appreciate the exceptional reach of Proz, at least in comparison to nationally based, selective-entry professional associations, see that it would be even better if there were less "noise", in the form of contributions from individuals who evidently do not have a clue.

It's a trade-off, though, because you can't have all the reach without some noise. In any case, it doesn't really matter that much what clients think of the "translation industry" in general so long as they perceive the professionalism of individual translators, who can then command premium rates.

Proz, used "con juicio", offers a space in which to showcase professionalism.

Giles


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Trisha F  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
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Wouldn't that be way too subjective? Dec 7, 2009

I am not sure whether I understand the original question or not. Is this about what translators post in Proz.com or are we discussing what translators say in other fora about their profession?

What does "eclectic" imply here? A wide array of opinions, perhaps? If this is so, how can we know which comments discredit translation? I think it is too subjective, to be honest, because we all have different views on this matter, surely. There are moderators here and I think they do their job quite well. Apart from the obvious destructive posts and "trolling" that are bound to come up in any forum, evaluating comments according to what allegedly brings translation and translators into disrepute would be extremely difficult in some cases and would probably involve a strong dose of censorship but then again, I may be misinterpreting the question... actually, when you think of it, ambiguity is not entirely avoidable: aiming to banish it from this - or any other forum - would be a rather ambiguous feat. I suppose it could be attained if everybody stopped posting...

[Edited at 2009-12-07 23:50 GMT]


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Pablo Bouvier  Identity Verified
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To be absolutely eclectic or to take part without any kind of ambiguities? That is the question... Dec 8, 2009

Trisha F wrote:

I am not sure whether I understand the original question or not. Is this about what translators post in Proz.com or are we discussing what translators say in other fora about their profession?

What does "eclectic" imply here? A wide array of opinions, perhaps? If this is so, how can we know which comments discredit translation? I think it is too subjective, to be honest, because we all have different views on this matter, surely. There are moderators here and I think they do their job quite well. Apart from the obvious destructive posts and "trolling" that are bound to come up in any forum, evaluating comments according to what allegedly brings translation and translators into disrepute would be extremely difficult in some cases and would probably involve a strong dose of censorship but then again, I may be entirely misinterpreting the question... actually, when you think of it, ambiguity is unavoidable. Fighting against it is in itself ambiguous.

[Edited at 2009-12-07 23:19 GMT]


As eclecticism I understand here the same as the first definition of the DRAE: A way of judging or doing that adopts an intermediate position, instead of following extreme or definite solutions.

With disrepute I mean something similar as if I had published at a forum "I am an xxxxx" and the most foreseeable reaction of readership will be "translators are xxxxxs". At least, if I was behaving senseless, I would try to have the common sense of assuming the consequences of my own behaviour and of not making it public at a forum...

And although I may sometimes not agree to ProZ moderating rules (I admit, I am sometimes quite radical), I believe moderators are essential for the good running of Proz and that they do a big job. Without them, this would be certainly an olla de grillos (bedlam)...

[Editado a las 2009-12-08 02:07 GMT]


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philgoddard
United States
Member (2009)
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Help! Dec 8, 2009

I'm totally lost!

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Pablo Bouvier  Identity Verified
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To be absolutely eclectic or to take part without any kind of ambiguities? That is the question... Dec 8, 2009

Giles Watson wrote:

It's also not really an issue.

From the outset, Proz has always defined itself as a market place and, quite logically, it has never set any bar to participation. Over the years, many translators who, like Pablo, appreciate the exceptional reach of Proz, at least in comparison to nationally based, selective-entry professional associations, see that it would be even better if there were less "noise", in the form of contributions from individuals who evidently do not have a clue.

It's a trade-off, though, because you can't have all the reach without some noise. In any case, it doesn't really matter that much what clients think of the "translation industry" in general so long as they perceive the professionalism of individual translators, who can then command premium rates.

Proz, used "con juicio", offers a space in which to showcase professionalism.

Giles


Many thanks to point this out. This is exactly what I was meaning.
My big doubt is if it is externally possible to differ clearly between professionalism of individual translators and his lack (noise).

[Editado a las 2009-12-08 02:06 GMT]


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Pablo Bouvier  Identity Verified
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To be absolutely eclectic or to take part without any kind of ambiguities? That is the question... Dec 8, 2009

Edward Potter wrote:

The above message is ambiguous to me. I imagine myself translating it...


Yes, I know. But, it is a studied ambiguity...
Who knows who/what I am speaking about, has understood me quite well.

[Editado a las 2009-12-08 01:57 GMT]


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Niraja Nanjundan  Identity Verified
Local time: 23:34
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Could you be a bit more specific? Dec 8, 2009

Pablo Bouvier wrote:
some of ours colleagues discredits the whole translation sector describing senseless behaviours of itself at some forums


Could you provide some specific examples of this? There are some colleagues who tend to overdo their forum participation, but most people who are very active in the forums behave quite professionally and sensibly, as far as I've noticed, but I could have missed something. Some of the translation agencies registered on ProZ could be accused of "senseless behaviour" and are sometimes the subject of forum discussions, but they usually don't participate in the discussions themselves.

Please clarify. Thanks.


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Giles Watson  Identity Verified
Italy
Local time: 20:04
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Noise to music Dec 8, 2009

Pablo Bouvier wrote:

My big doubt is if it is externally possible to differ clearly between professionalism of individual translators and his lack (noise).



Oh, I think so, Pablo.

Outsourcers often check the Kudoz answers and forum postings of translators they are interested in. Politely explaining to a noisemaker what is obvious to a professional is a good way of impressing potential clients.

Giles


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Trisha F  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 19:04
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Thoughtless posts occur in all fora Dec 8, 2009

Pablo Bouvier wrote:
As eclecticism I understand here the same as the first definition of the DRAE: A way of judging or doing that adopts an intermediate position, instead of following extreme or definite solutions.


Understood, but it was difficult to work this out because as this thread is written in English I did not consider the DRAE. Although the meaning of eclectic in English and Spanish is very similar it is not exactly the same: something which is eclectic (in English) does not follow a single direction but this does not necessarily imply that said direction is extreme or that the chosen solution is simply an intermediate position. According to Cambridge Dictionary:

Methods, beliefs, ideas, etc. that are eclectic combine whatever seem the best or most useful things from many different areas or systems, rather than following a single system

an eclectic style/approach
an eclectic taste in literature

I do not disagree with you. It is just that an eclectic forum may be one where one finds a varied mixture of opinions. If we take into account the strict dictionary definition of "eclectic" in this situation, this would probably hint at the possibility of enrichment through discussion. As a matter of fact, I do think this is often achieved in Proz threads.

With disrepute I mean something similar as if I had published at a forum "I am an xxxxx" and the most foreseeable reaction of readership will be "translators are xxxxxs". At least, if I was behaving senseless, I would try to have the common sense of assuming the consequences of my own behaviour and of not making it public at a forum...


This is very true but the actions of the odd thoughtless user can't discredit the translation profession as a whole. The forum user who does not behave properly rather discredits him/herself. I haven't seen any sort of trolling yet because I'm a new member but if I ever read the sort of comment you have described I would just think ill of the person who wrote it but would not go as far as to say all translators are bad professionals. On the other hand, one can't assume that just because people are perfectly civil and abide by the forum rules they are skilful and honest translators too. There is so much one can gather from what people post...

Having said that, this forum is not perfect but no forum is. For example, I am a member of a forum which is devoted to the music scene I'm into. As it is semi-private, relatively small and most users are UK based, a lot of us know each other in person and get to meet up face to face far more frequently than people in other forums around. We are a very close community with very specific music and fashion tastes and we are there for each other. I have got very valuable help from the people I have met through the forum and I'm ready to give my support when needed as well. This probably sounds ideal: like-minded people who are friends. However, there have been heated arguments and misunderstandings from time to time, I suppose this means the forum is alive. My point is, no matter how friendly, helpful and, in this case, professional people might be, one cannot avoid certain unpleasant moments. Proz is a very large international community so I suppose that managing this site is far more challenging.

And although I may sometimes not agree to ProZ moderating rules (I admit, I am sometimes quite radical), I believe moderators are essential for the good running of Proz and that they do a big job. Without them, this would be certainly an [i]olla de grillos


I thoroughly agree, moderators are essential. This applies to any sort of forum, be it for photographers, accountants, stamp-collectors, cross-dressers, vampire fans, rocket scientists, etc.

[Edited at 2009-12-08 21:11 GMT]


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Pablo Bouvier  Identity Verified
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To be absolutely eclectic or to take part without any kind of ambiguities? That is the question..." Dec 8, 2009

Niraja Nanjundan wrote:

Pablo Bouvier wrote:
some of ours colleagues discredits the whole translation sector describing senseless behaviours of itself at some forums


Could you provide some specific examples of this? There are some colleagues who tend to overdo their forum participation, but most people who are very active in the forums behave quite professionally and sensibly, as far as I've noticed, but I could have missed something. Some of the translation agencies registered on ProZ could be accused of "senseless behaviour" and are sometimes the subject of forum discussions, but they usually don't participate in the discussions themselves.

Please clarify. Thanks.


Hi Niraja: I am afraid, I cannot give you more explicit information since it would infringe Proz rules. So I am going to consider this topic as finished. The question was more or less if ProZ should avoid to support explicitly certain translators behaviours that seems, at least to me, not to be very in accordance with generally recognized practices.

[Editado a las 2009-12-08 21:27 GMT]


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Laurent KRAULAND  Identity Verified
France
Local time: 20:04
French to German
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What annoys me the most... Dec 13, 2009

Pablo Bouvier wrote:
Hi Niraja: I am afraid, I cannot give you more explicit information since it would infringe Proz rules. So I am going to consider this topic as finished. The question was more or less if ProZ should avoid to support explicitly certain translators behaviours that seems, at least to me, not to be very in accordance with generally recognized practices.

is that, in the fora for example, some colleagues ask questions, ignore the answers given as replies and do come back with the very same questions two weeks or more after having received a clear, professional and unequivocal answer. It is obvious, in such cases, that the person answering matters as much as the answer given and that only a few answers are eligible for a "Thank you!". And believe me, this has nothing to do with structural/linguistic miscomprehension...
A bit OT, but I now see why features such as KudoZ can become a living hell to some. Personal likes and dislikes may be allowed to rule.

[Edited at 2009-12-13 12:17 GMT]


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