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Misleading advert? 34,501 words translated in 10 hours by only one translator
Thread poster: Yasutomo Kanazawa

Charlie Bavington (X)  Identity Verified
Local time: 09:14
French to English
The file Nov 25, 2009

Could I ask, have you seen the file? If so, have you attempted to verify whether, in your opinion, the feat could be repeated, either by some kind of analysis or by working on it yourself for a short while. Did you check the word count? Or the time taken (assuming some date/time stamp on the resulting TM segments)? Or have you taken the testimonial at face value?

(I ask because I'm still struggling to see how it could be done without at least some of the "words" being figures - it w
... See more
Could I ask, have you seen the file? If so, have you attempted to verify whether, in your opinion, the feat could be repeated, either by some kind of analysis or by working on it yourself for a short while. Did you check the word count? Or the time taken (assuming some date/time stamp on the resulting TM segments)? Or have you taken the testimonial at face value?

(I ask because I'm still struggling to see how it could be done without at least some of the "words" being figures - it was a spreadsheet after all - and some of the "translation" being automatic conversion of the type 1 234,56 -> 1,234.56.)

I am absolutely not suggesting anyone is not being truthful, just wondering how much vendors check claims made in testimonials.

If the file is essentially bog standard text, albeit in a spreadheet, then surely it is in SDL's interest to say so, loud and long, 'cos the Lord knows we could all use that kind of productivity leap. If it was an atypical file (set of accounts, say) that not all of us would see or attempt to work with every week, then it would be honest to say as much, and that would deflect the possibly unwarranted "misleading" accusation....
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blomguib (X)  Identity Verified
Local time: 07:14
English to Flemish
+ ...
common sense ? Nov 25, 2009

I find this whole thread fascinating....first of all; I distrust ANY kind of add, secondly (and in view of personal experiences) I particularly distrust adds coming from SDL, but hey....perhaps they have mended their ways....anything is possible....but then:

Any translator who tries to do a proper job knows that without having done SERIOUS amounts of preparatory work (be it in the form of existing TM´s or other kinds of simply "ingenious" storage and association devices), or withou
... See more
I find this whole thread fascinating....first of all; I distrust ANY kind of add, secondly (and in view of personal experiences) I particularly distrust adds coming from SDL, but hey....perhaps they have mended their ways....anything is possible....but then:

Any translator who tries to do a proper job knows that without having done SERIOUS amounts of preparatory work (be it in the form of existing TM´s or other kinds of simply "ingenious" storage and association devices), or without dealing with text where a lot of similar things appear (which you only know AFTERWARDS - usually these texts are far more time consuming than "normal texts" and require a lot of attention), over 3000 words an hour, or 50 words a minute, or about 1 word a second (an this, of course, uninterrupted for 10 hours) are nice.....very nice.....but then again; Loek´s example is nicer, much nicer indeed, and shows that the original add was utterly meaningless....Of course - and as Charlie so correctly stated - if we are dealing with a "special" file (that you come across once in a lifetime), it would be nice to state that in the add....as well as stating the contrary....somehow I don´t think that was the original intention....

When you carry out a scientific experiment, you have to state the circumstances under which you carry out this experiment....I didn´t see those in the add....simply because the add wasn´t meant for those interested in the circumstances and those interested in really trying to put everything in its right context...the add (like any add) was meant to dazzle....as well as the fact that not translator x or y was chosem to make this statement, but.......as such, the add is misleading and should not be trusted...but that is simply something that anyone could decide for his or herself....amongst those who know what they are doing, such adds only have a detrimental effect when it comes to the reputation of the company placing it....

The fact that SDL feels the necessity to react in such a virulent way, says a lot....

WHEN I (AND OTHERS) CANNOT USE THIS FORUM TO ASK "ANNOYING QUESTIONS" OR MAKE "ANNOYING REMARKS", IT BECOMES TIME TO LOOK FOR ANOTHER MEDIUM...UNTIL NOW, THE THREAD SEEM TO CONTINUE NICELY AS IT GOES HOWEVER, AND AS IT SHOULD GO....

Will I be banned from proz now for expressing the fact that I clearly have doubts about this whole affair?

[Edited at 2009-11-25 14:38 GMT]

PS: by the way; these supposedly nifty TRADOS things make me smile.....when I use TRADOS, I am already quite pleased, content, satisfied, and relieved when I succeed in finishing a project without my comp crashing or remaining stuck and having to be rebooted, without corrupted files, without files that cannot be opened, etc....here is an add that would definitely be greeted in a positive way by users "you can know use TRADOS for 10 hours without your computer crashing!"...don´t think it would be considered "non-misleading" though....at least not by people who use it regularly

[Edited at 2009-11-25 14:47 GMT]
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Grzegorz Gryc  Identity Verified
Local time: 10:14
French to Polish
+ ...
Subsegment matching... Nov 25, 2009

SDL Support wrote:

[AutoSuggest dictionnaries]

I would be interested to see which other software has this as a native feature? Some tools do handle the idea of subsegment matching in other ways, but I have not seen this feature anywhere?


Of course, a 100% identical feature don't exist AFAIK but take a closer look on some tools.

E.g. Lexicon in DVX.
The negative difference is the candidates should be resolved manually if not found directly in the existing TMs/termbases, the positive one is you can analyse ongoing projects (you can't do it in Trados).
I.e. DVX does it before and Trados after the job is done, so in DVX you don't need existing TMs.

Another similar feature is LSC (Longest Substring Concordance) in MemoQ.
Not so advanced (yet) but very promising.
If the Kilgray guys create an iteratiive procedure in order to analyse the LSC hits, they will be able to deliver subsegment matches on the fly without external dictionnaries like AS in Trados.

AFAIR Logoport started to propose extracted subsegments in separate window, at least for some projects, some automation may follow, I suppose.

The list is not exhaustive.
No time to check 'em all

Cheers
GG

[Edited at 2009-11-25 23:22 GMT]


 

SDL Community  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 10:14
Member (1970)
English
Common Sense - couldn't agree more Nov 25, 2009

I would like to empasize that much of this is my personal opinion and not necessarily that of SDL. My reaction is not to do with you pulling the advert to pieces, I am sure I may do the same even if only to myself rather than posting it, and it is not to do with me trying to prevent you from expressing your opinion. It is to do with the way in which many of the posters on this thread have taken an individual to task for providing us with a statement of the experience she had with a particular ... See more
I would like to empasize that much of this is my personal opinion and not necessarily that of SDL. My reaction is not to do with you pulling the advert to pieces, I am sure I may do the same even if only to myself rather than posting it, and it is not to do with me trying to prevent you from expressing your opinion. It is to do with the way in which many of the posters on this thread have taken an individual to task for providing us with a statement of the experience she had with a particular job she was faced with.

There was no scientific experiment here, this is simply one of many quotes we have asked permission to publish from satisfied users of the software. This is not abnormal in any way and is pretty standard practice for any company to look for good quotes to help attract interest from users who may be thinking of trying the products out. I think this is clear.

I would also expect a Professional to look at the software and not the advertising before making a decision. All software has its plus points and minus points and even those companies we think of as honest and trustworthy will never tell you all the facts. In fact it may be innappropriate to do this because what is good for one user is not necessarily good for another.

All of the quotes we use have been vetted in terms of whether they could be possible or not. I have seen some pretty incredible claims that we did not use at all, and some needed to be rephrased to reflect more how this could be achieved. But I think we again need to consider what these are, and they are not scientific experiments. We often have problems getting users to share their files with us when we want to help them solve a problem, never mind just to verify a quote.

I think Charlie is probably near the mark in this case, because there has to be a lot of possibilities for Autolocalisation and AutoPropogation to achieve productivity like this even with AutoSuggest, but the point I am sure all of you understand is that the features we have introduced in Studio to make the most of these sorts of things are much enhanced. In this case the translator had not experienced this sort of productivity with these types of, to use her quote to me, "mind numbingly repetitive" documents in previous versions of the software. I think she is experienced enough not to quote on the translation of pure numbers alone.

I, we, are very happy to discuss openly on these forums the good and the bad, and we do this often on the appropriate CAT forum. I would just prefer this be something that meets the aims of these forums.

ProZ.com's mission is to provide tools and opportunities that translators, translation companies, and others in the language industry use to:

1. network,
2. expand their businesses,
3. improve their work, and
4. have more fun


I hope we're having more fun
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Sophie Dzhygir  Identity Verified
France
Local time: 10:14
Member (2007)
German to French
+ ...
Clarification Nov 25, 2009

SDL Support wrote:

This quote is based upon the translator working on a large Excel file that contained many repetitive segments. A large percentage of these segments became Context Matches in the Translation Memory as the translation progressed and because of the additional checks that Studio makes to ensure the accuracy for these types of matches the translator was able to accept them without question as they were automatically confirmed as a result of Auto-Propogation. This means that only a smaller number required attention and as it was possible to add terms to the Termbase on the fly, that were also repetitive, the AutoSuggest feature was able to use these in addition to other strings offered in this way and reduce the amount of typing and as a result complete the work faster.


I would also like to add some clarification, since I am the one who initiated the French thread.
Here is the ad I received in French:

« Je viens de terminer un projet de 34 501 mots en 10 heures grâce au gain de temps que permettent les fonctionnalités de SDL Trados Studio 2009 SP1 telles que AutoSuggest™ et la correspondance de contexte. Et tout cela sans même récupérer beaucoup de choses de la TM ! »

Marian Greenfield, traductrice et formatrice

I don't know if you speak French, M. Filkin, but if you don't, let me backtranslate the last sentence in the quote:
"That’s without even retrieving much from the TM"
Do you see a difference between "not having much of anything in the pre-existing TM" and "not retrieving much from the TM"? I do. The first one means that you didn't have many 100 % matches or fuzzies from the start, but that the text may after all have contained lots of repetitions. Whereas the second statement implies that there were not much repetitions either (because retrieving repetitions from the TM is indeed retrieving something from the TM, do you agree?).

After reading your explanations above, I understand that Ms Greenfield's quote in English is probably true to what happened it reality, but the quote in French is not. And in that way, it is a misleading advertisement, which is prohibited in France, as bohy kindly reminded.

I hope for you that the translations into other languages have been handled more carefully.


PS: I don't quite understand one of your latest statements:
I would also expect a Professional to look at the software and not the advertising before making a decision.
If you don't expect professionals to look at the advertising before making a decision, then why do you bother advertising at all?

[Modifié le 2009-11-25 16:13 GMT]


 

Anne Bohy  Identity Verified
France
Local time: 10:14
English to French
Dear SDL, Nov 25, 2009

Your explanations are very interesting. They bring a new light to this question.
Why not make a second global mailing to give these same clarifications, and explain that the so-called "project" was not one of XXXXXX's regular projects, but a Project (Studio 2009 Project) created on purpose?
Additionnally, the French version of the mailing should clarify the translation issue raised by Sophie. As you can see, translating this short quote in French cannot be done at the amazing speed o
... See more
Your explanations are very interesting. They bring a new light to this question.
Why not make a second global mailing to give these same clarifications, and explain that the so-called "project" was not one of XXXXXX's regular projects, but a Project (Studio 2009 Project) created on purpose?
Additionnally, the French version of the mailing should clarify the translation issue raised by Sophie. As you can see, translating this short quote in French cannot be done at the amazing speed of 3,500 words an hour...
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Jaroslaw Michalak  Identity Verified
Poland
Local time: 10:14
Member (2004)
English to Polish
SITE LOCALIZER
Now it is clear... Nov 25, 2009


All of these things would not have been possible with previous versions of the software.


Thank you for the explanation, now it is clear. The translator was amazed that she could such things (done as well or better in many CATs - with DejaVuX it would probably take seven hours), as it was impossible in earlier versions of Trados.

In that sense, the meaning of the ad is true - as far as subsegments are concerned, the previous version was useless.


 

Charlie Bavington (X)  Identity Verified
Local time: 09:14
French to English
Huh? Nov 25, 2009

bohy wrote:

the so-called "project" was not one of XXXXXX's regular projects, but a Project (Studio 2009 Project) created on purpose?

Where does anyone say it was created on purpose? What makes you say that - I didn't get that impression from anything said?


 

Grzegorz Gryc  Identity Verified
Local time: 10:14
French to Polish
+ ...
SDL French Nov 25, 2009

Sophie Dzhygir wrote:


I hope for you that the translations into other languages have been handled more carefully.[/quote]
Huh.
Probably the French translation was done by the guy who translated Multiterm
See:
http://www.proz.com/forum/sdl_trados_support/149941-trados_2009_misleading_german_user_interface_finish_beenden.html

PS: I don't quite understand one of your latest statements:
I would also expect a Professional to look at the software and not the advertising before making a decision.

If you don't expect professionals to look at the advertising before making a decision, then why do you bother advertising at all?

They spread the gospel.
Blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

As the Trados trial version version is no longer oficially available starting from early 2007 (AFAIR), logically, a Professional can't even look at the software ;P

Cheers
GG


 

KSL Berlin  Identity Verified
Portugal
Local time: 09:14
German to English
+ ...
Methinks he doth protest too much Nov 25, 2009

Grzegorz Gryc wrote:
As the Trados trial version version is no longer oficially available starting from early 2007 (AFAIR), logically, a Professional can't even look at the software ;P


I was about to ask Paul where it is that a Professional (his capitalization) can look at the software these days. Look in the sense of try it out, perhaps as a full working version for 30 to 60 days as is normal in the ROW.

Paul, have you got a URL for us?

As for the advert itself, I never take SDL's quadruplicate spam seriously (I get at least 4 copies of everything - or maybe it's 6 in the meantime - in two languages), and I'm even less inclined to do so now. It might be "based on the truth", but a slice of "truth" that is far removed from the average translator's daily working reality doesn't do anyone much good. I have no reason to doubt the integrity of the translator involved, and any questions about the integrity of SDL's marketing tactics (FUD, etc.) were cleared up long ago. So nothing new here, people... just move along.

But the URL for the full working demo of SDL Trados Studio 2009 would interest a number of people, I'm sure.


 

Piotr Bienkowski  Identity Verified
Poland
Local time: 10:14
Member (2005)
English to Polish
+ ...
[OT] I wish this ad was funny ... :-) Nov 25, 2009

like these commercials.

The SDL ad immediately made some translators in Poland (including me) think about these very commercials.

BTW, a fair share of commercials in Poland are plain funny. At least you can have a laugh, even if you don't care much about the product.

Regards,

Piotr


 

Marie-Céline GEORG  Identity Verified
France
Local time: 10:14
German to French
+ ...
Have a look at the software, yes Nov 25, 2009

But the URL for the full working demo of SDL Trados Studio 2009 would interest a number of people, I'm sure.


I'm one of those people.
To me too, it makes sense to have a look at a new software before paying for it. From what I've seen (including in SDL's very vague "demo" that doesn't show the software but only boasts about what it's supposed to be capable of), Studio 2009 is not just an upgrade to Trados 2007, it is a brand new tool that has nothing in common with the previous version, except for the name of the seller. Maybe I'm mistaken, but without a demo version, how can I know? As I've paid for upgrades since version 3 of Trados, I feel I've paid enough for some improvements and lots of longstanding bugs and unstability...

So I won't pay anything for Studio 2009 until I've had the opportunity to see that famous software at work - preferably on my computer, in a real working situation. Until then, I'll stick to Trados 2007 (and DVX for its great AutoAssemble and terminology features)!


 

Grzegorz Gryc  Identity Verified
Local time: 10:14
French to Polish
+ ...
TurboDymoMan Nov 25, 2009

Piotr Bienkowski wrote:

like these commercials.

The SDL ad immediately made some translators in Poland (including me) think about these very commercials.
uote]

If you don't understand Polish, a short explanation.
TurboDymoMan always makes 50% more and needn't do things other must do, so he's always cool.

Trados translates 34501 words in 10 hours.
TurboDymoMan ashamed Trados and translated 51751.5 words.
Trados must have AutoSuggest dictionaries and Perfect matches.
TurboDymoMan needn't have 'em.

Cheers
GG


 

SDL Community  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 10:14
Member (1970)
English
Translations and interpretation Nov 26, 2009

Sophie Dzhygir wrote:

« Je viens de terminer un projet de 34 501 mots en 10 heures grâce au gain de temps que permettent les fonctionnalités de SDL Trados Studio 2009 SP1 telles que AutoSuggest™ et la correspondance de contexte. Et tout cela sans même récupérer beaucoup de choses de la TM ! »


I don't know if you speak French, M. Filkin, but if you don't, let me backtranslate the last sentence in the quote:
"That’s without even retrieving much from the TM"
Do you see a difference between "not having much of anything in the pre-existing TM" and "not retrieving much from the TM"? I do. The first one means that you didn't have many 100 % matches or fuzzies from the start, but that the text may after all have contained lots of repetitions. Whereas the second statement implies that there were not much repetitions either (because retrieving repetitions from the TM is indeed retrieving something from the TM, do you agree?).


I don't speak French, and I would agree that if this is the translation that it could be better. I think I would have drawn a different conclusion than you from this because I would have taken the statement as it was made and not read another implication into it. But I think this highlights the difficulties with interpreting meanings in a single language, never mind adding the complexity of translating into another first. I will ask the Translator to review this.

Sophie Dzhygir wrote:
PS: I don't quite understand one of your latest statements:
I would also expect a Professional to look at the software and not the advertising before making a decision.
If you don't expect professionals to look at the advertising before making a decision, then why do you bother advertising at all?


I think the interpretation I placed on this was that as a Professional you would not rely on the advertising alone (I always viewed the English language as being quite flexible in this regard, and I do view Translators with a capital 'P', but of course I am not an expert). You would see the advertising and then decide for yourself whether the claim was accurate or not.

Kevin Lossner wrote:
I was about to ask Paul where it is that a Professional (his capitalization) can look at the software these days. Look in the sense of try it out, perhaps as a full working version for 30 to 60 days as is normal in the ROW.

Paul, have you got a URL for us?


At the moment we do not have this facility available, so the best url I can give you is this one.

http://ideas.sdl.com/

I did take a quick look to see if I could find an idea for this already so I could give you that url and you could all vote for it. But I couldn't find this as an existing idea that anyone asked for. Why not create one?


 

Grzegorz Gryc  Identity Verified
Local time: 10:14
French to Polish
+ ...
Capitalization... OT... Nov 26, 2009

SDL Support wrote:


I think the interpretation I placed on this was that as a Professional you would not rely on the advertising alone (I always viewed the English language as being quite flexible in this regard, and I do view Translators with a capital 'P', but of course I am not an expert). [/quote]

Neither am I an expert but an unusual capitalization isn't necessarily incorrect if used consciously, e.g., I was always amazed by Patrick's O'Brian irony:

His Majesty's Sloop, Sophie at sea

The Rt. Hon. Lord Keith, K.B., etc., etc.
Admiral of the Blue

My Lord,
I am to beg you will be pleased to order a Court Martial to be held on Isaac Wilson (seaman) belonging to the Sloop I have the honour to Command for having committed the unnatural Crime of Sodomy on a Goat, in the Goathouse, on the evening of March 16th.

I have the Honour to remain, my Lord,
Your Lordship's most obedient very humble servant


Cheers
GG


 
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