| Pages in topic: < [1 2] | Off topic: Schoolbag or school bag? Thread poster: Matthias Quaschning-Kirsch
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Ty Kendall 
United Kingdom
Local time: 04:54
Hebrew to English
| Varieties of English... | Oct 18, 2011 |
The original poster seems to be based in Germany, so I think his daughter may be learning English as a foreign language (unless she's in an International/English school).
Even so, this is where the murky world of varieties of English raises its ugly head.
And like I said, no UK hits clearly doesn't mean it's not used here (since several UK speakers have already come down on the side of "schoolbag").
And in my opinion, New Zealand English is just as valid ... See more The original poster seems to be based in Germany, so I think his daughter may be learning English as a foreign language (unless she's in an International/English school).
Even so, this is where the murky world of varieties of English raises its ugly head.
And like I said, no UK hits clearly doesn't mean it's not used here (since several UK speakers have already come down on the side of "schoolbag").
And in my opinion, New Zealand English is just as valid as UK or US English.
I think the teacher in question should realize there are multiple varieties of English nowadays and especially where spelling is concerned, it's a bit pedantic to insist on a single variety.
(Especially when the influence of UK English continues to decline....) ▲ Collapse
| | | | Ty Kendall
United Kingdom
Local time: 04:54
Hebrew to English
| Incidentally....... | Oct 18, 2011 |
After narrowing it down to the UK, I still got 414,000 hits.
"14% of parents even admit to insuring their child's schoolbag as the value of its contents rises with the popularity of modern gadgets"
http://www.selbytimes.co.uk/news/local-news/selby_students_schoolbag_secrets_1_3738603
The schoolbag "Chairpadbag" i... See more After narrowing it down to the UK, I still got 414,000 hits.
"14% of parents even admit to insuring their child's schoolbag as the value of its contents rises with the popularity of modern gadgets"
http://www.selbytimes.co.uk/news/local-news/selby_students_schoolbag_secrets_1_3738603
The schoolbag "Chairpadbag" is a new way of staying comfortable in class. It is designed to hook over the back of a school chair, with a special padded flap that folds out over the backrest and seat to make even the hardest seat comfy. It is also expandable, ensuring there is enough room for everything a child might need for school.
http://www.concentrate.org.uk/index.php?page=12
And even a Times article "Is your child's schoolbag damaging their back?"
women.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/.../article3503940.ece ▲ Collapse
| | | | XXXphxxx (X)
United Kingdom
Local time: 04:54
Portuguese to English
+ ...
| Sorry, my assumption | Oct 18, 2011 |
Since the question had been posted in the 'Translation in the UK' forum I assumed that's the variant the original poster was after.
| | | | Ty Kendall
United Kingdom
Local time: 04:54
Hebrew to English
| The schoolbag really is blue... | Oct 18, 2011 |
Lisa Simpson wrote:
Since the question had been posted in the 'Translation in the UK' forum I assumed that's the variant the original poster was after.
You're right, it may even be the variety they subscribe to in their curriculum. Still, for something so contentious even among linguists, it shouldn't be something the kid should have been marked down for. When I was trained as a teacher, we were meant to distinguish between mistakes, errors, slips, Global errors etc...
"A mistake refers to a performance error that is either a random guess or a “slip,” in that it is a failure to utilise a known system correctly.
An error , a noticeable deviation from the adult grammar of a native speaker, reflects the competence of the learner.
Mistakes are what researchers have referred to as performance errors (the learner knows the system but fails to use it) while the errors are a result of one’s systematic competence (the learner’s system is incorrect). "
Under these definitions, I find it hard to categorize "schoolbag" as either a mistake or an error.
Since schoolbag is clearly not a noticeable deviation from the adult grammar of a native speaker I think it's unfair to mark the answer as wrong. If I had been the teacher, I wouldn't have had a problem, presuming the teacher is working to strict guidelines about spelling in the curriculum, I still would have had issue with marking it wrong, if I absolutely had to, I'd have added a little note explaining exactly why e.g. it's what the curriculum/examiners demand although alternative spellings are recognized beyond the curriculum.
So, I think the schoolbag is blue too
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| Thank you very much! | Oct 18, 2011 |
When I asked the question I didn't know what a torrent of different contributions this would cause.
Indeed, I forgot to mention that I, as some of you already guessed, live in Germany and that my daughter is learning English as a foreign language. A schoolbook publisher (I would never have written "school-book publisher" or even "school book publisher" - it just looks odd to me) has to come with a consistent spelling, so he often hast to make decisions and perhaps rule out solutions... See more When I asked the question I didn't know what a torrent of different contributions this would cause.
Indeed, I forgot to mention that I, as some of you already guessed, live in Germany and that my daughter is learning English as a foreign language. A schoolbook publisher (I would never have written "school-book publisher" or even "school book publisher" - it just looks odd to me) has to come with a consistent spelling, so he often hast to make decisions and perhaps rule out solutions that would have been just as good. That's life.
What your answers seem to show first of all is the dynamic character of a living language. In fact, when I take a look on my daughter's learning material, sometimes I don't recognize the language I learned some thirty years ago.
In Germany, we have quite strict rules how to write almost every single word. Luckily, these rules are so complex that nobody can know them all, so everybody writes as he or she wants. In English, things seem to be left to a greater extent up to language users - perhaps a more democratic access to active use of written language.
As to what concerns the teachers, I do not think it is their duty to know all these subtleties. Likewise, there are situations demanding clear decisions (just as is the case with the schoolbook publishers), so they have to teach one version and leave aside the other. Otherwise, they would have to confront pupils in their first year of English learning with all those confusing freedoms of doing something instead of giving a clear orientation. So, I can understand the teacher's position very well.
On the other hand, I agree that there is more than just a slight difference between marking mistakes and admitting what is not taught but possible.
Thanks again and best regards,
Matthias ▲ Collapse
| | | | | No nonsense reply | Sep 28, 2021 |
Almost all dictionaries worth their salt are in agreement that 'schoolbag' is standard; albeit 'school bag' is accepted. Therefore, the teacher in question is right to teach it as one word, but they are not right to mark the two-word variant as incorrect.
| | | | Tony Keily
Local time: 05:54
Italian to English
+ ...
| Usage is usage (reply with some nonsense thrown in) | Sep 29, 2021 |
In Germany, we have quite strict rules how to write almost every single word.
Spain has a Royal Academy that tells everybody what's right and wrong (although now that they're spellchequered by WhatsApp, who cares?). Most countries don't have this sort of arbiter.
I guess running words together would come more naturally to a German native speaker, so there's probably a kind of pre-emptive suspicion of it among TEFL teachers.
TEFL methods (and teachers) have to generate over-rigid rules that try to roughly map current accepted usage, mainly for the sake of simplicity. I remember there being a big ruckus in the 1980s when the BBC put out a TEFL method that had its various Susans and Toms asking one other 'Do you have a dog?' I think the Susans and Toms probably still made cross signs with their forearms and waved garlic if anyone dared say "Usen't you go to my school?", although anyone who ever asked me that probably asked me just that.
James Joyce liked to run words together (pre-Finnegans Wake obviously, when he ran everything together): biscuitmush, for example.
[Edited at 2021-09-29 13:36 GMT]
| | | | James Plastow
United Kingdom
Local time: 04:54
Member (2020)
Japanese to English
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