| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53] > | Ten common myths about translation quality
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Balasubramaniam L. wrote:
Proz.com is not really helping outsourcers when one of its features (the native-only button) keeps qualified and talented translators from approaching them with their quotes. It is actually harming them, because in many cases a better qualified or better experienced non-native translator who is proficient in the target language would be able to do a better translation for the outsourcer, than a native translator.
Well, yeah, but that's also a risk control business decision. They choose who to contract with, they choose which risks to take and which to avoid, basing on their own criteria, better or worse but their own, not imposed on them from the outside. It's their right. They have that right, while professional linguists don't have the right to content themselves with gross simplifications. Linguists have a responsibility to educate about language issues.
The other thing is that not everybody who claims to be a native speaker is one, and not all people who are technically native speakers are as proficient as some of those bilinguals (or even learners) who don't claim the status.
José Henrique Lamensdorf wrote:
So blame the outcome on judgment-impaired translation PMs. I'd give a 'not guilty' verdict to Proz on this. As I'd rather avoid being hired by unreasonable clients in order to prevent later trouble, Proz is actually helping me to do so, albeit involuntarily.
That's an important point to make. A while ago, I contemplated the idea of tweaking my copy intentionally to discourage certain less than desireable categories of potential clients. I eventually gave up on the idea for a number of reasons, but avoiding unreasonable clients is a good risk avoidance strategy.
Ty Kendall wrote:
Just to note - neither the "natives", nor I am "keeping anyone out", the outsourcers are!!!! (and the outsourcers aren't necessarily natives of the target language!
Depends which ones. There are sometimes long periods in which I'd struggle to identify a single EN-PL assignment.
[Edited at 2013-07-22 13:22 GMT]
| | | | Tatty 
Local time: 15:21
Spanish to English
+ ...
Newcomers to the industry are entitled to work as translators. Nowadays, they will have invested a lot of time and money (more importantly) in both graduate-level and post-graduate studies. They will leave uni much better trained than we did. And they owe it to themselves to assert their right to work as translators and recoup their investment. Everyone improves with experience, but my very first translations were still very good.
Strong analytical skills there, Ty.
| | | | | I saw an example of it | Jul 22, 2013 |
Łukasz Gos-Furmankiewicz wrote:
Well, yeah, but that's also a risk control business decision. They choose who to contract with, they choose which risks to take and which to avoid, basing on their own criteria, better or worse but their own, not imposed on them from the outside. It's their right. They have that right, while professional linguists don't have the right to content themselves with gross simplifications. Linguists have a responsibility to educate about language issues.
The other thing is that not everybody who claims to be a native speaker is one, and not all people who are technically native speakers are as proficient as some of those bilinguals (or even learners) who don't claim the status.
Once I visited the web site of a translation agency located in an EN-speaking country. They had a PT-BR section, so I had a look at it. The translation was so disparagingly bad, that it would be a legitimate deterrent to any Brazilian considering the possibility of hiring them for my language.
I wrote them about it, advising to unplug that section pronto, as potentially toxic to their business, and to get some competent proofreading done on it. They replied that the translation had been done by a professional translator, native of (a Brazilian state capital) and living there, so they thought it should be OK. They were sort of surprised from me telling them it wasn't.
One point worth mentioning here is that I clearly refrained from offering my services to fix it, as HTML proofreading - though it's likely that I can do it - is not among the services that I offer. So I assured them that I was just offering a friendly tip, not peddling any business.
| | | | Mark Benson (X)
English to Swedish
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| Being a genuine native speaker is more than some marketing plot... | Jul 22, 2013 |
... and any outsourcer that gets a non-native, for the same financial reasons non-natives translate into other languages, does that only because of financial reasons, just like non-natives argue in favor of being able to translate just as well as natives only because of financial reasons.
Ty Kendall wrote:
It's the myth that native language has no bearing at all on translation quality.
This myth should definitely have made the top ten. Maybe the reason it didn't is that it's too obvious to Kelly.
Having been in the language services industry since 1996, she might have forgotten that it's possible to think that it doesn't matter whether the translator is a native speaker of the target language. But it should definitely have been mentioned!
I can only see one possible scenario in which this point would be genuinely irrelevant. It's set in a rather distant future and I would describe it as a sort of mix between "Idiocracy" and aspects of "Code 46", with no more native speakers of any language and no more need to understand anything anyway.
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| The problem is that many outsourcers cannot proofread the work, | Jul 22, 2013 |
which is a big mistake on their part. Many cannot tell the quality of translation, and this is mostly why they believe in the magic word -- a native speaker, without thinking too deeply about the gradation of native fluency as well -- from the illiterate to PhDs in language studies. Native level, does not really mean that much, if you think about it.
I think everything, in any sphere of life, should be decided on a case to case basis, rather than on some "magic words".
... See more which is a big mistake on their part. Many cannot tell the quality of translation, and this is mostly why they believe in the magic word -- a native speaker, without thinking too deeply about the gradation of native fluency as well -- from the illiterate to PhDs in language studies. Native level, does not really mean that much, if you think about it.
I think everything, in any sphere of life, should be decided on a case to case basis, rather than on some "magic words".
I agree with Lukasz on one thing, that linguists have the obligation to refute, or at least investigate, some false, or simplistic claims related to translation. As to the native speaker problem -- it is a very broad term, and very imprecise in the migrating societies environment.
A real native speaker would be a person, similar to the one from Chomski's research. A person born in a small linguistically isolated community, with almost no external interference from other languages. Do we still have people like that? Perhaps in the middle of the Amazon Forest.
[Edited at 2013-07-22 14:49 GMT] ▲ Collapse
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extra.
[Edited at 2013-07-22 14:51 GMT]
| | | | XXXphxxx (X)
United Kingdom
Local time: 14:21
Portuguese to English
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| I presume you're talking about agencies | Jul 22, 2013 |
LilianBNekipelo wrote:
The problem is that many outsourcers cannot proofread the work, which is a big mistake on their part.
You cannot say that a client is making a mistake because they have not paid someone else to check the work they paid a professional to do in the first place. Would you instruct a solicitor and then pay another to check his/her work?
I would also like to think there aren't too many "illiterate" translators knocking about. That really wouldn't do.
| | | | | Absolutely -- this is exactly what I am saying. | Jul 22, 2013 |
Outsourcing companies have to have proofreaders. You cannot buy a cat in a bag. There is a proverb like that in some languages.
Illiterate native speakers are also native speakers -- in fact some languages do not have a written form.
[Edited at 2013-07-22 15:10 GMT]
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Mark Benson wrote:
just like non-natives argue in favor of being able to translate just as well as natives only because of financial reasons.
Nope. I translate to earn a living, but I translate in both directions because while I can't outdo the best of native speakers, I can still deliver more correct English than about 98% of its native users and write better than the vast majority of its writers. Actually, PL-EN is often more fun and easier to me than EN-PL to boot. I refuse to bend my knee to an abstract rule the letter of which has become more important than its spirit. The lack of ability of think critically of the L1 rule – as opposed to worshipping it – is a testimony to the not so great state of critical thinking ability among linguists, which sometimes shows in how they translate.
This said:
Ty Kendall wrote:
It's the myth that native language has no bearing at all on translation quality.
Of course. Being native is a critical factor, and not being native is a powerful hindrance. One, however, that can be offset on the balance of things – especially given that (which, again, proponents of the L1 rule love to ignore) few native speakers are flawless users of their own respective languages. Just like a non-Korean can once in a blue moon win a Starcraft tournament, a non-native translator can play the game well enough.
Plus, not having a native understanding of the source also is a hindrance, one that proponents of the L1 rule love ignoring.
| | | | | What do you mean by "being a native speaker",Lukasz, because | Jul 22, 2013 |
you keep repeating this phrase. Then you mention L1 -- L1 is not equivalent to a native language -- native language is a much broader term. In fact L1 may not have that much to do with the quality of translation, in particular cases. Some people may not even speak their L1 when they grow up.
| | | | Balasubramaniam L.
India
Local time: 18:51
Member (2006)
English to Hindi
+ ...
SITE LOCALIZER | Yes that is true | Jul 22, 2013 |
Łukasz Gos-Furmankiewicz wrote:
... few native speakers are flawless users of their own respective languages.
I only have to mention the word debutant and the rest would be clear to those who follow these forums.
In sum, being native in the target language is no great advantage to flaunt about in the real world of professional translation.
| | | | | Aren't most educated people in India bilingual at least? | Jul 22, 2013 |
Hindi (or another language)-English. I always though this was the case, that you had at least two native languages.
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Balasubramaniam L.
India
Local time: 18:51
Member (2006)
English to Hindi
+ ...
SITE LOCALIZER | Most Indians are multi-lingual | Jul 22, 2013 |
LilianBNekipelo wrote:
Hindi (or another language)-English. I always though this was the case, that you had at least two native languages.
India is teeming with languages and there is a popular saying that the language changes at every mile and the water (that is, the taste of the water) after every 10 miles.
Hindi and English are the declared official languages of the Indian state, which also recognizes some 22 languages as national languages - the list is still growing. Most of these national languages have official language status in one or more states of India. For example, Hindi in addition to being the official language of India, is also the official language of ten Indian states.
Most states also have more than one main language, though one of these predominates, as the states are organized on the linguistic principle, that is, areas where one language is predominantly spoken have been consolidated into a state. But in reality, there is plenty of overlap between states and linguistic areas. All this gives pelnty room for bilinguilism and multi-lingualism to flourish among Indians.
Since English is extensively used in governance, business and higher education, most educated Indians acquire some knowledge of this language. Some go further and acquire near perfect knowledge of English.
As far as I am concerned, I have been exposed to four languages in early childhood - Tamil, Malayalam, Hindi and English, any of which or all of which I can claim as my native language by criteria that would be commonly acceptable to most people.
I have full proficiency only over Hindi and English, which are my main working languages.
| | | | | It is very interesting. Thank you. | Jul 22, 2013 |
Tamil and Malayalam are Dravidian languages, if I am not mistaken, and apparently closer to Sanskrit than Hindi. Do many people still know Sanskrit?
| | | | Mark Benson (X)
English to Swedish
+ ...
| Quality over quantity | Jul 22, 2013 |
Łukasz Gos-Furmankiewicz wrote: Mark Benson wrote:
just like non-natives argue in favor of being able to translate just as well as natives only because of financial reasons. Nope. I translate to earn a living, but I translate in both directions because while I can't outdo the best of native speakers, I can still deliver more correct English than about 98% of its native users and write better than the vast majority of its writers. Actually, PL-EN is often more fun and easier to me than EN-PL to boot. I refuse to bend my knee to an abstract rule the letter of which has become more important than its spirit. The lack of ability of think critically of the L1 rule – as opposed to worshipping it – is a testimony to the not so great state of critical thinking ability among linguists, which sometimes shows in how they translate.
I definitely have to disagree. And I find it goes way beyond my personal opinion. If what you said was anywhere close to containing even the slightest grain of truth, you would be too busy to sit and type meters of text on various forums every day.
So much for critical thought...
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