| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4] > | Who makes an offer like this? Thread poster: George Trail
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| I don't agree with you Edward | Jun 29, 2013 |
You cannot train on serious technical translation that has to be completed in about five days, where the realistic time that it would take to do it right is about three weeks for an experienced translator who does not want to work 20 hours a day.
Secondly, the protests are mostly a sign of pride, nothing else.
| | | | Kay Denney 
France
Local time: 18:39
French to English
Plus which, beginners need more time, not less, to produce good work.
Work experience which involves simply churning out bad translations is simply a waste of time: the translator will feel used and abused by the end of it and will not have have time to explore anything in detail, so they won't learn anything about the subject in hand.
| | | | | Totally agree with this | Jun 29, 2013 |
LilianBNekipelo wrote:
You cannot train on serious technical translation that has to be completed in about five days, where the realistic time that it would take to do it right is about three weeks for an experienced translator who does not want to work 20 hours a day.
Secondly, the protests are mostly a sign of pride, nothing else.
If you look at the jobs closely, you see that many of them are of a very technical nature and in highly specialized fields; these are not texts that a beginner could really cut their teeth on - not in any realistic time frame, anyway.
| | | | Edward Potter
Spain
Local time: 18:39
Member (2003)
Spanish to English
+ ...
| My comments stand | Jun 29, 2013 |
Edward Potter wrote:
Both the offer and the protesting are legitimate. This is what price adjustment is all about.
Those who protest publicly might consider a few things. Whether it is true or not, you might be giving the impression that you don't have much work. Or perhaps you may be perceived as someone who is angry or jealous against those who agree to such a price. Such things may not be true, but life isn't always fair.
These low offers serve an important purpose for our industry. Newcomers who have a tough time getting their foot in the door can gain valuable experience from taking these jobs. They will learn customer service, billing, collections, etc. After having done a good job they can ask for a recommendation from their new (albeit low-paying) customer.
Conversely, the offering party will gain experience on what certain prices will bring as regards talent and reliability.
There are many things to be gained (for certain people) by accepting a low paying job.
It is quite possible that the newbie will not do a good job. Likewise, the low-paying outsourcer may end up with bad quality. But this is not a foregone conclusion.
If the quality is bad, the low-payer may learn to be more careful in their screening process, or, indeed, pay more next time. All of this is part of the learning process and adjustments will be made on both ends or neither will last too long.
This is a natural weeding out process. There doesn't seem to be much anyone can do about it other then allowing bad translation buyers and providers to fail on their own.
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Nicole Schnell
United States
Local time: 09:39
English to German
+ ...
In memoriam | Edward, did you do the math? | Jun 30, 2013 |
Edward Potter wrote:
Both the offer and the protesting are legitimate.
...
These low offers serve an important purpose for our industry.
...
There are many things to be gained (for certain people) by accepting a low paying job.
It is quite possible that the newbie will not do a good job.
...
If the quality is bad, the low-payer may learn to be more careful in their screening process
45,000 words within 4 days over the weekend at 3 cents/word?
You must be kidding if you consider any of this legitimate, important to the industry or to be of any value as a learning experience, except as an instruction for suicide for both parties involved.
Edited - fixed the quote to display properly
[Edited at 2013-06-30 05:47 GMT]
| | | | | If there was a "Like/Agree" button I'd click it now | Jun 30, 2013 |
Nicole Schnell wrote: Edward Potter wrote:
Both the offer and the protesting are legitimate.
...
These low offers serve an important purpose for our industry.
...
There are many things to be gained (for certain people) by accepting a low paying job.
It is quite possible that the newbie will not do a good job.
...
If the quality is bad, the low-payer may learn to be more careful in their screening process 45,000 words within 4 days over the weekend at 3 cents/word? You must be kidding if you consider any of this legitimate, important to the industry or to be of any value as a learning experience, except as an instruction for suicide for both parties involved. Edited - fixed the quote to display properly [Edited at 2013-06-30 05:47 GMT]
| | | | Samuel Murray
Netherlands
Local time: 18:39
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
+ ...
Nicole Schnell wrote:
45,000 words within 4 days over the weekend at 3 cents/word?
Well, "weekend" is a relative concept. As a freelance translator, you can choose for yourself which days are your "off" days. There is no way the client or outsourcer can know beforehand when your "weekend" is. If your weekend is Saturday and Sunday, then tell the client so.
And it's not 45 000 words in 4 days -- its 15 000 words in 4 days.
That said, it works out to roughly 4000 words per day, and the payment for it is barely more than minimum wage (in my country of residence, for example). You must be having a lull in your business and be in good health if you accept this job.
| | | | Edward Potter
Spain
Local time: 18:39
Member (2003)
Spanish to English
+ ...
| Problem identified. | Jun 30, 2013 |
So, what is the solution to these outrageous offers?
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Nicole Schnell
United States
Local time: 09:39
English to German
+ ...
In memoriam
Samuel Murray wrote: Nicole Schnell wrote:
45,000 words within 4 days over the weekend at 3 cents/word? Well, "weekend" is a relative concept. As a freelance translator, you can choose for yourself which days are your "off" days. There is no way the client or outsourcer can know beforehand when your "weekend" is. If your weekend is Saturday and Sunday, then tell the client so. And it's not 45 000 words in 4 days -- its 15 000 words in 4 days. That said, it works out to roughly 4000 words per day, and the payment for it is barely more than minimum wage (in my country of residence, for example). You must be having a lull in your business and be in good health if you accept this job.
"We could take two or three translators to work together as a
team."
How does that make "roughly 4000 words per day"?
Just wondering...
I am also wondering why any person who is educated and intelligent enough to be a translator would even remotely consider this kind of ordeal to make minimum wage despite their university degrees. To those "volunteers": I'd rather recommend a solid hour or two with a dominatrix, if true humiliation and insult are your pleasure.
Seriously.
| | | | | But the market is one | Jun 30, 2013 |
Nicole Schnell wrote:
I am also wondering why any person who is educated and intelligent enough to be a translator would even remotely consider this kind of ordeal to make minimum wage despite their university degrees. To those "volunteers": I'd rather recommend a solid hour or two with a dominatrix, if true humiliation and insult are your pleasure.
Seriously.
The current job market is particularly good at that kind of thing (i.e. humiliation and insult), which connects with the failure of the education system. People don't understand things, lack knowledge, lack understanding, lack people skills. It's hard to expect them to understand and respect translation in such a case, or respect any professional.
| | | | Samuel Murray
Netherlands
Local time: 18:39
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
+ ...
Nicole Schnell wrote:
How does that make "roughly 4000 words per day"?
45 000 words / 3 translators = 15 000 words per translator
15 000 words / 4 days = 3750 words per day (roughly 4000)
I am also wondering why any person who is educated and intelligent enough to be a translator would even remotely consider this kind of ordeal to make minimum wage despite their university degrees.
I'm afraid that some industries pay a lot better for the same amount of university attendance than others. Translation has been at the lower end of the pay scale for quite some time. If anyone wants higher income per time spent at university, commerce is a surer bet than linguistics. Having a university degree in a low-paying industry won't change the fact that it is a low-paying industry. Translators are not rewarded for their time spent at university but for their time spent translating.
It is a mistake to believe that a university degree entitles you to a higher income, or that being satisfied with a lower income if you have a university degree means that there is something wrong.
If I had 4 days with nothing planned, and I had to choose between flipping burgers for minimum wage and doing translations for minimum wage, I'd choose the translation work. But, I suppose there are translators out there who would rather flip burgers, or... who would rather just sit.
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This type of offer should be treated in the same way as any other kind of junk email.
"The dogs bark, but the caravan moves on."
Steve K.
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| The real question is: how do we educate the public? | Jul 1, 2013 |
Language looks like a commodity.
Translations are bought and sold by the page or in units of thousands of words. A page is a piece of paper - think of the newspaper and advertising copy that is here today and mulched for recycling or polluting the environment tomorrow.
Like a kilo of rice, how many grains are there in that? Many people simply buy their rice where it is cheapest.
No other professionals market their work in the same way, and nor should we. ... See more Language looks like a commodity.
Translations are bought and sold by the page or in units of thousands of words. A page is a piece of paper - think of the newspaper and advertising copy that is here today and mulched for recycling or polluting the environment tomorrow.
Like a kilo of rice, how many grains are there in that? Many people simply buy their rice where it is cheapest.
No other professionals market their work in the same way, and nor should we.
It will undoubtedly vary from one country and culture to another.
Is it best to write to the newspapers (hoping your words will be read before they are mulched...) or the chambers of commerce?
Words are invisible, and everybody can talk! So how do we raise awareness that words are not all identical like grains of rice?
And how do we convince newbies that they should run a mile from offers of minimum-wage slavery, which will only steal their time and get them into bad habits of guessing instead of checking when they meet an unfamiliar expression or a specialist term?
That is where these discussions ought to lead us.
Why not make a resolution to do something between now and World Translators' Day in September to open somebody's eyes to what translation is really about? ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Translations as a commodity | Jul 1, 2013 |
Christine Andersen wrote:
Language looks like a commodity.
Translations are bought and sold by the page or in units of thousands of words. A page is a piece of paper - think of the newspaper and advertising copy that is here today and mulched for recycling or polluting the environment tomorrow.
This chimes in what I have felt for some time about the way some agencies (often large corporate organizations) view translation. I would liken it to a production line at a factory. I've had prospective clients ask me what my "quality assurance procedure" is, as if I were churning out identical products on a conveyor belt. Some agencies even shy away from saying "translation" or "translator" at all, as if they were dirty words. Instead of translating, we vend, we supply or we contract. These sorts of clients have little understanding of the process of translating, which is an intellectual service that requires considerable mental effort and time, with almost limitless scope for error. If you don't understand what you're selling, you're putting yourself at a big disadvantage, yet not all agencies seem to realize this.
| | | | | So tell them what your QA procedure REALLY is! | Jul 1, 2013 |
Peter Shortall wrote:
...
I've had prospective clients ask me what my "quality assurance procedure" is, as if I were churning out identical products on a conveyor belt. ...
These sorts of clients have little understanding of the process of translating, which is an intellectual service that requires considerable mental effort and time, with almost limitless scope for error. If you don't understand what you're selling, you're putting yourself at a big disadvantage, yet not all agencies seem to realize this.
One of my clients comes immediately to mind - they have an elaborate Quality Assurance Procedure, which I have agreed to participate in as far as I can as a single person, and sometimes as a second linguist reviewing other people's texts. I can't tell you their name here, but they check everything.
Numbers, units, terminology, fonts, layout, localisation in the best sense of the word... They are not cheap, but they are expanding, so there is good news too.
Posting on your website what you check might be a god way of attracting the best kinds of clients and informing others.
It could be an excellent way of drawing attention to some of the different aspects of translation that are invisible to the average consumer.
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