| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4] > | Your test translation was very good, but your rates are too high for us... Thread poster: MariusV
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Speranza 
Local time: 17:04
Spanish to Russian
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A test may be 200-300 words, not 1,800.
Edwal, if they wanted 1,800 words for free, that's an issue but a separate one. The agency asked for a free test translation (amount unknown), Marius said no, the agency then asked him to translate 1,800 words on his usual terms and conditions.
I believe it is much cheaper to 'hand-pick' a dozen or two candidates
Valery, are you prepared to come up with a truly efficient selection process that does not involve test translation? You may want to sell it to agencies: If your suggestion works, they will probably be happy to pay. FYI: CVs are ineffective, they are often fake. A university degree in translation is ineffective: The guy who translated "Acts of God" in a contract as "деянья Божьи" (I swear!) did have one. Previous work samples are ineffective: They can easily be stolen/purchased/borrowed from somebody else. Extensive work experience guarantees nothing: The lady who translated "не только…, но и…" as "not only..., but and..." had plenty. The fact that the translator is a native speaker of the target language guarantees nothing. The fact that the translator has worked for big names guarantees nothing. References can be illuminating, but only if they come from agencies that have a reputation for excellent quality control. So my question is not rhetorical. If you have developed a method that works, agencies are likely to be willing to buy it, and you will do a favor to the whole market.
Another point - how can they be sure the test was done by the candidate?
Even if they pay for the test (call it "a small job which they have proofread" if you like), they still can't be sure it was translated by the candidate.
[Edited at 2008-04-06 15:21]
| | | | Zamira B.
United Kingdom
Local time: 16:04
Member (2006)
English to Russian
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| Nadejda, you missed Valery's point | Apr 6, 2008 |
Nadejda Vega Cespedes wrote:
Valery, are you prepared to come up with a truly efficient selection process that does not involve test translation?
He did say
"I believe it is much cheaper to 'hand-pick' a dozen or two candidates - this is not so hard, just needs investing a few hours into research - and pay them for the test."
Valery's suggestion is totally sensible. As for me I do not bother to respond to "we are expanding our database" ads and have started to refuse test translations.
| | | | | Efficient selection process | Apr 6, 2008 |
Nadejda Vega Cespedes wrote:
Valery, are you prepared to come up with a truly efficient selection process that does not involve test translation? You may want to sell it to agencies: If your suggestion works, they will probably be happy to pay...
Nadejda, I am not into re-inventing bikes
I am sure good agencies have one in place - I have had a chance to go through it myself.
CVs may be fake.
Test translations may be fake.
References may be fake.
Diplomas may be fake.
Diplomas that are not fake... I used to exam those ladies and gentlemen who later got Minsk State Linguistic University diplomas (most of them did, anyway) and I know that, again, there are diplomas and diplomas!
All that is so true and test translations do not help solve this a bit.
You know that wonderful Russian word - 'halyava' (getting something for nothing). My point is that quite a few agencies are trying to pull exactly that - getting good translators without proper investment of funds and effort into recruiting process.
Give them work and then separate the husk from the grain. Plan well ahead so that you are not forced to make 'quick-fix' solutions, breed your team etc etc. All they need is read some good ABC on management.
| | | | MariusV
Lithuania
Local time: 18:04
English to Lithuanian
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TOPIC STARTER | it is the problem of the agency | Apr 6, 2008 |
Nadejda Vega Cespedes wrote:
Guys, you've obviously never checked other people's test translations for agencies. You wouldn't believe the amount of crap they get. Just a couple of days ago an agency I've been cooperating with for years told me they recently had been able to find only two acceptable candidates after testing 500 (sic!). Now imagine they have to pay every single person who is smart enough to supply a colorful CV followed by an MT product. How long would they survive in the market? Are you really suggesting you should be hired exclusively on the basis of your self-assessment? True, you are not offered a free test meal at a restaurant, but in the translation world the agency is not the person sitting at the table waiting for dinner to be served, the agency is the restaurant and you are the cook. If they don't test your skills, how would they know if you are up to par? Should they simply believe you are terrific because you say so? Besides, to continue the analogy, at a respectable restaurant you certainly take a sip of wine for free before you buy the bottle.
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Coining a good team is a HARD work demanding a lot of resources. And it is the AGENCY who needs those good translators, so this is the work/problem of the agency HOW they find good translators. Why shall we do all those tests for free doing their work? How long will they survive in the market? Does not matter to me as it gives me no pain in relation to that. And is a test translation enough to test the skills? Are they interested in quality of the TEST translations or in quality of real work? What can they judge from those 1-2 pages of the test? The "primary impression" at the very best ? And if they do not trust a person they offer cooperation, why they waste their time and the time of the person bothered? Quality assurance (in reality) can be done in one (and I think the only one way):
1) one finds people one thinks these people are "OK",
2) gives some work (a small, non-urgent, not a very responsible project), has OWN trusted reviser to "dogwatch" the translator and what he/she delivers,
3) one more small project like that (all is supervised by a competent person of the agency),
4) maybe one more small project like that (under a full supervision again),
5) a bigger and a more responsible project (under a full supervision) and if the agency gets convinced that they can rely on that translator already, OK, "welcome to our team" (and proofreading of what is received - each job received - will NEVER hurt, moreover, that many agencies boast having super duper QA systems and revision of each sentence received from translators).
So, my dear, pay either for your revisers if you do not trust the translators you picked up/found/contacted, hire a professional proofreader whose skills are really much higher than those of the translator (where the proofer is really a competent person), spend YOUR time and money (not my time and money), evaluating, getting yourself convinced and etc. Do not want to spend extra cash? But cash for a small job can save a lot if something wrong happens. Do not want to waste your time on evaluation process - hundreds of translators etc.? Why translators shall want that? They have hundreds of even thousands of clients too.
All in all, selection and quality assurance of new translators THIS IS THE WORK of a translation agency. I am not intenting to do their work, moreover, for free (like they will not even move a finger if I ask to spend some 3-4 hours for me because I decided I want to be convinced that this agency is a serious one). Selection of the team is THEIR work, picking up best clients (at least reliable ones) is our work. Somehow I do not bother agencies asking to fill in 12 pages of client application sheets, asking for the CVs of their CEO's and PMs, nor ask to make a test money transfer. BOTH PARTIES are equal and both do their own work. As simple as that.
[Edited at 2008-04-06 17:15]
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MariusV
Lithuania
Local time: 18:04
English to Lithuanian
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TOPIC STARTER
Valery Kaminski wrote: Nadejda Vega Cespedes wrote:
Valery, are you prepared to come up with a truly efficient selection process that does not involve test translation? You may want to sell it to agencies: If your suggestion works, they will probably be happy to pay... Nadejda, I am not into re-inventing bikes I am sure good agencies have one in place - I have had a chance to go through it myself. CVs may be fake. Test translations may be fake. References may be fake. Diplomas may be fake. Diplomas that are not fake... I used to exam those ladies and gentlemen who later got Minsk State Linguistic University diplomas (most of them did, anyway) and I know that, again, there are diplomas and diplomas! All that is so true and test translations do not help solve this a bit. You know that wonderful Russian word - 'halyava' (getting something for nothing). My point is that quite a few agencies are trying to pull exactly that - getting good translators without proper investment of funds and effort into recruiting process. Give them work and then separate the husk from the grain. Plan well ahead so that you are not forced to make 'quick-fix' solutions, breed your team etc etc. All they need is read some good ABC on management.
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Fully agree with you. All those diplomas, references, even tests can be fake. Maybe (if these are not fake), these help to get some primary impression. And impression is ONLY an impression. Agency does not need an impression - it needs a good vendor. If I was an agency, I would not bother if the job was done by Ivan, Peter, Boris or Ana (even by a honourable person such as Aleksandr Sergejevic Pushkin) I would bother about the one who is RESPONSIBLE for all that (the one who is supposed to be paid for the job). What I would be interested (the only one thing) - to have the job done as it should be done (in good quality and on time), and, of course, the rate that is suitable for me. All the rest - does not matter (even if the job is done by ufos).
[Edited at 2008-04-06 17:21]
| | | | RobinB
United States
Local time: 10:04
German to English
| Absolutely right: test translations can be good | Apr 6, 2008 |
Nadejda Vega Cespedes wrote: Guys, you've obviously never checked other people's test translations for agencies. You wouldn't believe the amount of crap they get.
We normally require test translations from freelance applicants (we always require them for in-house positions, of course, but that's a different story).
The test pieces are standardised for all applicants, i.e. they have nothing to do with ongoing projects. They are, of course, not remunerated.
To put things into perspective: the pass rate for our test translations is under 5%. Even then we make mistakes, so we actually end up working in the longer term with even fewer freelances than those who pass the translation test. And considering that we only send test translations to about 10% of the translators who send us applications, we're very much aware of the amount of crap out there.
Personally, I'm not fooled by the translators who proclaim loudly that they never do any test translations, or never do unpaid test translations. Translators who really don't need to do test translations don't look on places like ProZ for jobs in the first place, and merely dip in from time to time to see how the other half's doing. Translators like that tend to do things like come to professional seminars and buy you a drink afterwards, because they really want to work for you. Almost a different profession to what you read about every day on ProZ.
| | | | | Reasonable test | Apr 6, 2008 |
Steven Capsuto wrote:
Tests are a reasonable process, but 200 to 250 words is almost always sufficient.
That's the most I agree to for a free test, and I *always* make sure they agree to my general fee structure before I'll even look at the test text.
I entirely agree. It only takes 20 minutes to do it and you can put the agency's doubts at rest.
| | | | Nesrin
United Kingdom
Local time: 16:04
English to Arabic
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| You got paid for it - what's the problem? | Apr 6, 2008 |
I'm sorry I just skimmed through all above replies, cause I think the discussion went a bit off the topic of the original posting by Marius.
My reply to Marius is: you got paid your full rate for the test. This alone shows that the agency is a decent one (of course, I wouldn't dream of doing 1800 words for free, but at least they treated it as a proper job and paid you for it earlier than usual, as you say). So let's forget about the fact that it's a test, and treat it like a prope... See more I'm sorry I just skimmed through all above replies, cause I think the discussion went a bit off the topic of the original posting by Marius.
My reply to Marius is: you got paid your full rate for the test. This alone shows that the agency is a decent one (of course, I wouldn't dream of doing 1800 words for free, but at least they treated it as a proper job and paid you for it earlier than usual, as you say). So let's forget about the fact that it's a test, and treat it like a proper job as well. An agency gave you a job, then decided to stop dealing with you because it reconsidered your rates, or found another translator of a similar quality but lower rates. What's so strange about that?
I say it's a decent and honest agency, but it's trying to save some money. Which is hardly a surprise. ▲ Collapse
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MariusV
Lithuania
Local time: 18:04
English to Lithuanian
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TOPIC STARTER
RobinB wrote: Nadejda Vega Cespedes wrote: Guys, you've obviously never checked other people's test translations for agencies. You wouldn't believe the amount of crap they get. We normally require test translations from freelance applicants (we always require them for in-house positions, of course, but that's a different story). The test pieces are standardised for all applicants, i.e. they have nothing to do with ongoing projects. They are, of course, not remunerated. To put things into perspective: the pass rate for our test translations is under 5%. Even then we make mistakes, so we actually end up working in the longer term with even fewer freelances than those who pass the translation test. And considering that we only send test translations to about 10% of the translators who send us applications, we're very much aware of the amount of crap out there. Personally, I'm not fooled by the translators who proclaim loudly that they never do any test translations, or never do unpaid test translations. Translators who really don't need to do test translations don't look on places like ProZ for jobs in the first place, and merely dip in from time to time to see how the other half's doing. Translators like that tend to do things like come to professional seminars and buy you a drink afterwards, because they really want to work for you. Almost a different profession to what you read about every day on ProZ.
Dear Robin,
I understand your approach. But can I ask you a question - are test translations only one and THE ONLY thing that determines the reliability of the translator? I do not say that it does not provide some insight. It does give a certain "first impression". However, I see "translator testing" procedure as a more complex thing and only a test translation is NOT enough (like a very nice CV, many diplomas and etc.). It is JUST the "surface". Same like that "first impression" can be really misleading (say, after an interview or a talk with a person you can say "Wow, he/she is so smart", but later on it can turn out just the opposite). Why I am telling/asking that - I have a colleague (owner of a serious agency) who had a really bad situation - he gave a test to one translator, the test was super, and he trusted that person too much (based on the test) and assigned a very responsible job. What happened - the translator did not meet the dealines that caused very serious outcomes, let alone she went "hiding" (with phones off, emails not replied) and after some time "appeared" and, at last, sent the translation. And the quality of that translation was so poor that it had to be re-done (translated from scrap)...BUT the test translation was SUPER...
[Edited at 2008-04-06 22:44]
| | | | | Extrapolation | Apr 7, 2008 |
RobinB wrote:
...we're very much aware of the amount of crap out there.
Robin, if we have a look from the translator's perspective, we can say the same in relation to agencies. Reliable agencies that pay decent rates and do not treat freelancers as 'expendable material' are not so easy to find either. At the same time, invitations to test translations (mostly from what was called KTAs - kitchen table agencies) are numerous. Just about 5% send you feedback and try to make your day by informing you that your CV is in their database now. Others do not bother. Why should they - there are zillions of translators out there! One in twenty then may send you work. So now I am really careful when chosing which test translations to do.
| | | | Zamira B.
United Kingdom
Local time: 16:04
Member (2006)
English to Russian
+ ...
| Couple of questions | Apr 7, 2008 |
Nadejda Vega Cespedes wrote:
FYI: CVs are ineffective, they are often fake. A university degree in translation is ineffective: The guy who translated "Acts of God" in a contract as "деянья Божьи" (I swear!) did have one. Previous work samples are ineffective: They can easily be stolen/purchased/borrowed from somebody else. Extensive work experience guarantees nothing: The lady who translated "не только…, но и…" as "not only..., but and..." had plenty. The fact that the translator is a native speaker of the target language guarantees nothing. The fact that the translator has worked for big names guarantees nothing. References can be illuminating, but only if they come from agencies that have a reputation for excellent quality control.
It appears from "not only..., but and..." that this was a translation by a native Russian speaker. If so, why would a Russian>English translation test be given to a Russian native in the first place?
Nadejda, you do state in your profile that you are an English native as well as Russian. I am curious about it. You may well be an English native, I do not know of course. May be one of your parents is an English native and you grew up speaking both languages in the family, or at least you were born and bred in an English-speaking country. To me claiming native proficiency in other instances would be a misleading exaggeration.
[Edited at 2008-04-07 07:10]
| | | | MariusV
Lithuania
Local time: 18:04
English to Lithuanian
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TOPIC STARTER | trust has to be earned | Apr 7, 2008 |
What an agency actually needs? An agency needs a RELIABLE/TRUSTED team of translators. Otherwise the business will turn into a nightmare.
And earning trust is a GRADUAL process. It cannot be earned "at a go" - by a test translation, super duper CVs, diplomas, references, or whatever etc. As simple as that. A person cannot be trusted from the first impression - and a test translation is ONLY one of the elements of the first impression. That is why it does not make a lot of sense. Mor... See more What an agency actually needs? An agency needs a RELIABLE/TRUSTED team of translators. Otherwise the business will turn into a nightmare.
And earning trust is a GRADUAL process. It cannot be earned "at a go" - by a test translation, super duper CVs, diplomas, references, or whatever etc. As simple as that. A person cannot be trusted from the first impression - and a test translation is ONLY one of the elements of the first impression. That is why it does not make a lot of sense. More exactly, a serious agency SHALL not rely on the translator as a reliable one because of good test results... ▲ Collapse
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RobinB
United States
Local time: 10:04
German to English
| Test translations can reduce risk | Apr 7, 2008 |
My apologies if we've drifted away from your original topic. All I can say to that is that we can't second-guess what prompted the agency to decide your prices were too high. It's quite possible that the variables on the project changed suddenly: corporates have a habit of changing the goalposts at short notice.
We also have a couple of freelances who we only use on jobs where we get exceptionally high prices from our customer. After all, a margin of 20% between what the freelance c... See more My apologies if we've drifted away from your original topic. All I can say to that is that we can't second-guess what prompted the agency to decide your prices were too high. It's quite possible that the variables on the project changed suddenly: corporates have a habit of changing the goalposts at short notice.
We also have a couple of freelances who we only use on jobs where we get exceptionally high prices from our customer. After all, a margin of 20% between what the freelance charges and what you charge the end-client simply isn't a viable financial proposition.
MariusV wrote:
I understand your approach. But can I ask you a question - are test translations only one and THE ONLY thing that determines the reliability of the translator?
No, of course not, but they do give a reasonably accurate indication in most cases. The CV is interesting, the diplomas are not, to be honest. I'm interested in a person's skills, knowledge and experience, rather than pieces of paper. But, as I wrote earlier, translation tests can also result in "false positives".
Same like that "first impression" can be really misleading (say, after an interview or a talk with a person you can say "Wow, he/she is so smart", but later on it can turn out just the opposite).
Absolutely. The same goes for so many translators who their colleagues proclaim publicly to be absolutely brilliant. In reality, though, they're less than impressive when it comes to actually translating, rather than just talking about it. I'm sure the same holds true for every profession.
Why I am telling/asking that - I have a colleague (owner of a serious agency) who had a really bad situation ... And the quality of that translation was so poor that it had to be re-done (translated from scrap)...BUT the test translation was SUPER...
Shit happens, and that's just a business risk like any other. It's happened - once - to us, too. In our case, the translator sent off the translation but didn't check that we'd actually received it, and in fact it sat on their provider's server for several days. Translator disappeared, couldn't be contacted, so we ended up doing the job ourselves over the weekend. We were not happy puppies, although of course the ultimate cause of the problem was negligence rather than malice. It was a good translation when we ultimately received it, but a good, late translation is just a waste of bandwidth. And not remunerated!
Your colleague's problem sounds very familiar, though, and I've heard of plenty of similar stories (e.g. translator disappears for a long weekend to visit a relative "because I thought that if your customer says Friday afternoon, what they actually mean is Monday morning"). It's a wonder that more translators don't get killed by angry clients.
Test translations won't prevent this sort of screw-up from happening, but I would argue that they mitigate the risk, which is what prudent business management is all about - reducing the risk to manageable levels.
Robin ▲ Collapse
| | | | RobinB
United States
Local time: 10:04
German to English
| Too few translators, too many agencies | Apr 7, 2008 |
Valery Kaminski wrote: Just about 5% send you feedback and try to make your day by informing you that your CV is in their database now. Others do not bother. Why should they - there are zillions of translators out there! One in twenty then may send you work.
It's odd, isn't it, this widespread impression that the world is awash with good translators. Nothing could be further from the truth. Demand for good translators outstrips supply many times over (in most language combinations at least). The problem isn't that there are too many translators. The problem is that there are too many agencies. It's the agencies who are driving down prices, and the end-clients just sit there and watch with utter astonishment as these agencies drive a cart and horses through the classic laws of economics, while most translators allow themselves to be shafted in the race to the bottom. And this situation is unlikely to change until the majority of translators start behaving like self-employed business professionals, rather than poor, defenceless cottage-industry amateurs. People who translate for 2 or 3 cents a word aren't bottom-feeders. They're the bottom food.
Robin
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RobinB - you said it all! Your perspective, from both sides of the fence, is spot on. Let's just hope some of what you expressed hits home with translation agency managers AND fellow professional translators!
Cheers,
Patricia
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