| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3] > | Help: native US-english or not? Thread poster: MikeMk
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MikeMk
Local time: 18:23
TOPIC STARTER
))))
a'm not native
a'm just russian who never have any english teacher...
so that's my stupid mistake)))
sorry
| | | | | possibly not 'native English' | May 12, 2009 |
MikeMk wrote:
I am really need to know is my book translator US native or not, becaus I have some doubt:
Hello Mike
I'm wondering why you have some doubt? IMO it is not a very good translation. I'd grade this piece of writing at IELTS Level 7. 'Native' is 8. Is it possible for you to post the source text?
Lesley
[Edited at 2009-05-13 05:51 GMT]
| | | | | One-fourth sounds OK to me | May 12, 2009 |
Terry Richards wrote:
In general it seems like very good English but the use of "one-fourth" makes me wonder. I never met a US or UK native that wouldn't say "a quarter".
However, it could just be a case of a tired translator who got a bit "infected" by the source language, a situation I'm sure we can all relate to!
If I had to bet money, I would bet on a native speaker but there is room for some doubt. If the translator is not a native, they are **** good!
Terry.
In my part of the US, (upper midwest college town), people say "one-fourth" about as often as they say "a quarter." "One-fourth" didn't raise any (ahem!) red flags with me.
| | | | James McVay 
United States
Local time: 12:23
Russian to English
+ ...
| Thanks, Jack | May 12, 2009 |
Jack Doughty wrote:
Another modern oddity is to use plural forms after a singular subject, e.g. "The company have just issued their annual report". This is more common in UK English than US, I believe, but personally I don't like it.
Thanks for clarifying that, Jack. I've always wondered about that particular British oddity.
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Hi Mike,
MikeMk wrote:
I have 10 opinions:
6 – hi is native(5 of them english native(US,AU,CA))
4 – hi is not native(only one of them from UK)
Where do you get these 4 nays? Not from this discussion I hope.
| | | | Maria Karra
United States
Local time: 12:23
Member (2000)
Greek to English
+ ...
| the company... | May 12, 2009 |
James McVay wrote: Jack Doughty wrote:
Another modern oddity is to use plural forms after a singular subject, e.g. "The company have just issued their annual report". This is more common in UK English than US, I believe, but personally I don't like it. Thanks for clarifying that, Jack. I've always wondered about that particular British oddity.
I'm not sure that's an oddity, Jack. There is a difference between the singular and the plural in this case.
We say "The company is located in Massachusetts", meaning the establishment is in Massachusetts.
When we say "The company have just issued their annual report" we refer to the people that make up the company. The people have issued the report, not the establishment/the premises.
Another example: family.
I remember this from a college exam. And I remember it because I got it wrong...
"My family have always been honest with me", i.e. my relatives have been honest.
"My family is large" = I have many relatives.
"My family are large" = my relatives are tall and fat.
| | | | MikeMk
Local time: 18:23
TOPIC STARTER
Mikhail Kropotov wrote: Hi Mike, MikeMk wrote:
I have 10 opinions:
6 – hi is native(5 of them english native(US,AU,CA))
4 – hi is not native(only one of them from UK)
Where do you get these 4 nays? Not from this discussion I hope.
Of course from another source
Most of them are RU-native living in AU and CA
| | | | | Native speaker | May 14, 2009 |
I agree with the others - no hesitation. Reads very well.
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| Would ALL native speakers score an 8 or higher? | May 14, 2009 |
lai an wrote:
I'm wondering why you have some doubt? IMO it is not a very good translation. I'd grade this piece of writing at IELTS Level 7. 'Native' is 8. Is it possible for you to post the source text?
Lesley
With all due respect, Lesley, we cannot know if it's a good translation or not. Without the source, we can only assess it as a piece of writing.
Talking about assessments, I wonder if *every* native speaker is good enough at writing to score an 8 on the IELTS scale. Something tells me the answer is a resounding "No," but I'm really curious to hear from others.
| | | | | My try; IELTS scores | May 15, 2009 |
MikeMk wrote: I am really need to know is my book translator US native or not, becaus I have some doubt: The term phase state (or simply phase) encompasses a number of widely known dissociative phenomena, many of which are referred to by various terms, such as astral or out-of-body travel. This concept also includes the more pragmatic term lucid dreaming, but far from always in the sense and form implied by that expression. Hence, the term phase has been introduced in order to make it possible to study phenomena that are beyond habitual associations and (often unfair) stereotypes. The term out-of-body travel is accurate to the extent that this is just the sensation felt by a person experiencing this phenomenon.
A phase has two primary attributes: a person has full conscious awareness, as well as the understanding that he is outside his usual physical body. At the same time, the degree to which a person perceives surrounding space affects all of the sensations that he feels, which are often in a higher form than in wakefulness, something difficult to imagine without having been experienced. And so, it is not without reason that this practice is considered to be a higher state of self-hypnosis or meditation, and is often referred to under different names as the highest possible human achievement in various religious and mystical movements (yoga, Buddhism, etc.).
In essence, this is a little-studied state of mind in which one is unable to control and feel his physical body. Instead, his space perception is filled with realistic phantom experiences.
Interesting Fact!
Sensations in the phase state can be so realistic that a person unintentionally falling in one often believes that he is still in his physical body, and that everything going on around him is reality. This occurs most often at night or in the morning.
It is believed that up to one-fourth of the human population has encountered this phenomenon. However, if one accounts for variations and different degrees of intensity of the state, nearly everyone has encountered it in one way or another. First, many do not notice that they were in the phase when they did something, especially when they are waking up. Second, many do not assign any significance to the occurrence of a phase that isn't deep, as such phases are not as jolting as deep states. As a result, this is an extremely common phenomenon that all can experience. One only needs to act in a correct and conscious fashion in order to achieve it.
Here is my 'translation' of the 'underlying source text'. I hope that Mike can post the source text, so that we can compare.
The term 'phase state' (or simply, 'phase') includes a number of widely known dissociative phenomena, many of which are referred to by such terms as 'astral travel' or 'out-of-body travel'. The concept also includes the more technical term 'lucid dreaming', but very often not in the sense or form implied by that expression. Hence the term 'phase' was introduced, in order to make it possible to study the phenomena that are behind the usual associations and often unfair stereotypes. The term 'out-of-body travel' is accurate only to the extent that this is the sensation felt by a person experiencing these phenomena.
A 'phase' has two primary features: As well as understanding that he/she is outside his usual phyical body, a person has full conscious awareness. At the same time, the degree to which a person perceives his/her surroundings affects all of the sensations that he or she feels, which are often in a higher form than in wakefulness, something difficult to imagine without having been experienced. And so it is not without reason that this discipline is considered to be a higher state of self-hypnosis or meditation, and is often referred to, under different names in various religious and mystical movements (yoga, Buddhism, etc.), as the highest possible human achievement. In summary, this is a little-studied mental state in which one is unable to feel and control one's physical body, and instead has one's spatial perceptions filled with realistic phantom experiences.
Interesting Fact! Sensations in the 'phase state' can be so realistic, that a person falling into one unawares often believes that he is still in his physical body, and that everything going on around him is reality. This occurs most often at night, or in the morning. It is believed that up to one-fourth of the the human population has encountered this phenomenon. However, if one accounts for the variations and different degrees of intensity of the state, nearly everyone has encountered it in some way or another. Firstly, many do not notice that they are in the phase when they are doing something, especially when they are waking up. Secondly, many do not assign any significance to the occurrence of a phase that is not deep, as such phases are not as 'jolting' as deep states. Consequently, this is an extremely common phenomenon that all can experience. One only needs to act in a correct and conscious fashion in order to achieve it.
@ Mikhail
Regarding IELTS, you have to prepare for this exam. IMO a good native-English translator should be able to achieve Level 8 in the Writing section. The Academic IELTS writing section includes evaluation of such things as 'cohesion' and 'coherence'.
[In NZ, 6.5 is entry-level to university for English-second language students. Translators and interpreters must have a university degree to qualify to sit the Naati at professional level or to become NZSTI full-members, and so 8 is realistic IMO for English-native 'qualified translators' in this country.]
[Edited at 2009-05-15 03:58 GMT]
| | | | | A quarter isn't worth that much | May 16, 2009 |
Kathryn Sanderson wrote:
In my part of the US, (upper midwest college town), people say "one-fourth" about as often as they say "a quarter." "One-fourth" didn't raise any (ahem!) red flags with me.
People in the US and Canada designate twenty five cents by the term quarter. I guess that would explain why they are reluctant to use this word to designate something other than money.
One fourth (without the dash) sounds fine to me.
| | | | | Oh dear. Russian is quite different to English ... | May 18, 2009 |
Mikhail Kropotov wrote: lai an wrote:
I'm wondering why you have some doubt? IMO it is not a very good translation. I'd grade this piece of writing at IELTS Level 7. 'Native' is 8. Is it possible for you to post the source text?
Lesley With all due respect, Lesley, we cannot know if it's a good translation or not. Without the source, we can only assess it as a piece of writing. Talking about assessments, I wonder if *every* native speaker is good enough at writing to score an 8 on the IELTS scale. Something tells me the answer is a resounding "No," but I'm really curious to hear from others.
Well Mikhail, I would love to hear back from you and other Russian linguists.
I am wondering whether 'free word order' ' or 'synthetic' languages like Russian are particularly difficult to translate perhaps?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Word_order#Free_word_order
I suppose I really could not detect the underlying text at all (structurally) after all ... I really just viewed the translation as a composition by one of my ESL students.:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synthetic_language#Examples
How lucky I am to have chosen Chinese as my second language ...
[Edited at 2009-05-18 21:59 GMT]
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conejo
United States
Local time: 11:23
Japanese to English
+ ...
| Sounds good to me | May 20, 2009 |
I'm a native US English speaker.
| | | | B D Finch
France
Local time: 18:23
French to English
+ ...
| Avoiding sexist assumptions. | May 24, 2009 |
Mykhailo Voloshko wrote: Could any native speaker explain why the person is he. We demand from our students such clumsy variants as "he/she", "he or she", "they" (due to new trends in English), while the native speakers continue using "he". 
I'm really pleased that you avoid the sexist use of the word "he" and don't assume that any normal person must be male! Personally, I favour s/he, or "he or she" and occasionally use "they", but prefer to avoid it because I'd hate to see the singular disappear. "You", of course, was originally plural and some people must have been very upset to see "thou" disappear from the English language.
I do hope that my fellow English native speaker translators take note!
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Other signs that it could be a non-native/source language
infection:
1 Latinate 'bookish' translation?
encompasses -> includes, takes in
2 overuse of 'various'
3 Problems with the definite article 'the'?, see 7
This concept -> the concept
4 not idiomatic?
far from always -> rarely, often not
5 inappropriate 'field'?
pragmatic -> ?technical, objective, applied ...
6 has been -> was? (unless it is an academic paper)
... See more Other signs that it could be a non-native/source language
infection:
1 Latinate 'bookish' translation?
encompasses -> includes, takes in
2 overuse of 'various'
3 Problems with the definite article 'the'?, see 7
This concept -> the concept
4 not idiomatic?
far from always -> rarely, often not
5 inappropriate 'field'?
pragmatic -> ?technical, objective, applied ...
6 has been -> was? (unless it is an academic paper)
7 has not understood the source text properly?
to study phenomena that are beyond -> to study the phenomena that
are behind
is accurate to the extent that this is just -> is accurate only
to the extent that this is
8 style too colloquial? eg (often unfair) -> change brackets to
commas; 'just' -> merely, simply, only; 'isn't' -> is not
9 A phase -> The phase state
10 attributes -> features (generally people have attributes,
things have features)
11 'as well as' comes first in the sentence in native English, so
the sentence should/could be rearranged to make it more
native-like?
a person has full conscious awareness, as well as the
understanding that he is outside his usual physical body.
Incorrect terminology?
11 surrounding space -> his/her surroundings?
[12 this practice? -> what practice (mistake in the source
text?)]
13 In essence (cliche) -> in a nutshell; state of mind -> mental
state/condition; unable to -> not able to [a definition -> join
these two sentences with 'and' ]
14 Doesn't collocate?: space filled with phantom experiences ->
phantom sensations/stimuli
15 wrong preposition?: falling in one -> falling into one
16 the definite article 'the'? : if one accounts for variations
-> if one accounts for the variations
17 doesn't make sense?: a person unintentionally falling into
one? -> a person falling into one without realising it/ a person
falling into one unawares
18 Incorrect use of link words (for 'argument')? First, Second ->
Firstly, Secondly
19 misunderstanding of the source text argument:
many do not notice that they were in the phase when they did
something -> many do not notice that they are in a phase when they
are doing something
20 Logic? as a result -> therefore
21 wordiness? in order to -> to ▲ Collapse
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