| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5] > | dealing with poor source texts Thread poster: Maria Popiel
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jyuan_us 
United States
Local time: 03:20
Member (2005)
English to Chinese
+ ...
| If you can still understand what the author means | Mar 17, 2015 |
Maria Popiel wrote: jyuan_us wrote: Epameinondas Soufleros wrote:
The best approach, I believe, is to add a comment to let the client know that something is wrong in their text, and translate the 'edited' version of the source sentence (I mean the one that you have edited mentally, not waiting for the author to provide an actual edited version). .
[Edited at 2015-03-16 14:50 GMT] If the text is "full of syntax errors, plagued with strange and non-existing idioms, with thoughts and concepts linked illogically, with gerunds appearing where they shouldn't be, etc.,", I guess it will not be editable. You don't know what the author wanted to say in the first place, how will you edit it? If you really mentally edited the type of text mentioned above, you were not editing it per se. You were rather rewriting it, ending up with with concepts very different to what was originally meant by the author. In most cases I am able to extract the meaning. But this might be due to the fact that I have quite a long experience as a proofreader and editor of texts written by dislexic people (but, like, really dislexic, not those who only think they are). I also had a client who was actually quite a brilliant writer, but once in a while (well, OK, pretty often) he would produce Master-Yoda-like sentences, if you know what I mean. After a couple of years working for this guy I guess I got pretty used to sorting things out in a jungle of someone else's chaotic thoughts. So I think in many cases you can understand the meaning even if the text is, well, horrible, especially if you can read a bigger chunk of the text and know the context. But if you don't, then it's better to talk to the client, obviously. The text I am dealing with now is written by the client in a language that is not his mother tongue, nor is this person a writer or linguist. I am wondering... perhaps I should offer the client to help him improve the source text as well?
Then you can just translate it correctly and in that case, it won't be too much of an headache.
You may choose to just let the client know that the source text is poorly written but mind you some times the client doesn't like you to point it out.
[Edited at 2015-03-17 10:37 GMT]
| | | | | Education system | Mar 17, 2015 |
I often get badly-written source texts in Italian - it's the order of the day as far as I'm concerned.
Tom in London wrote:
The worst offenders are academics who think they appear "cultured" by writing in an intentionally impenetrable Italian which, as often as not, conceals a paucity of ideas that I, as the translator, uncover very quickly.
I think part of the problem is the education system which teaches children (if indeed it teaches them anything at all), that the more elaborate, the better.
To come back to your question, it really depends on the use that will be made of the text, and I will respect its target register. So if it's a technical manual (something I rarely do), the text needs to be understandable to the reader.
If it's humanities - audio guides, prose, whatever - I will try to improve on it, obviously respecting what the author wanted to say.
| | | | Neirda
China
Local time: 15:20
Chinese to French
+ ...
| So it's not just me | Mar 19, 2015 |
Some contracts are absolutely committed to making no sense to the point I wonder whether this is on purpose.
I do respect those who actually have the redacting skills required to confuse the hell out of a mutual consent, because they're the devil I know, but seriously, the hell with those who look like they have no idea what they're writing about but still manage to give me the idea they're getting all the blanket with ambivalently bad English (Chinese is another problem).
| | | | Edward Potter
Spain
Local time: 09:20
Member (2003)
Spanish to English
+ ...
| Can it be doubted that such texts are in abundance in academics, social, political, and perfunctory | Mar 30, 2015 |
I should start by merely limiting myself to pointing out the fact that such a concept entirely escapes the inescapable key point that is directly and specifically related to, but not exclusive of, the innate global ability to discern between, on the one hand, a perfectly intelligible well-intentioned, yet, I must interject if I do say so myself, pompous expression of one's inner import, and a pithy piece of poo put on paper that perchance precludes puzzlement from people positively peering at th... See more I should start by merely limiting myself to pointing out the fact that such a concept entirely escapes the inescapable key point that is directly and specifically related to, but not exclusive of, the innate global ability to discern between, on the one hand, a perfectly intelligible well-intentioned, yet, I must interject if I do say so myself, pompous expression of one's inner import, and a pithy piece of poo put on paper that perchance precludes puzzlement from people positively peering at the prattling of the prude.
Having established that [JUAN CONSULT WITH JOSE AND EL JEFE YDBOUT PUT WHAT NEXT SECION 4. WE TALK MEETING LAST WEEK TOMORROW. OKAY?]
[Edited at 2015-03-30 18:23 GMT] ▲ Collapse
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| Flag all 'interpretations' | Mar 30, 2015 |
Hi there,
If I am able to communicate with the author of the text, I i) highlight all errors that create some ambiguity in the source text, ii) insert a comment stating my interpretation of the text in question and iii) request confirmation/clarification from the author.
Where the author is unavailable for clarifications, I go ahead and interpret the incorrect sections to the best of my ability, highlighting any source text ambiguities and inserting a comment to the eff... See more Hi there,
If I am able to communicate with the author of the text, I i) highlight all errors that create some ambiguity in the source text, ii) insert a comment stating my interpretation of the text in question and iii) request confirmation/clarification from the author.
Where the author is unavailable for clarifications, I go ahead and interpret the incorrect sections to the best of my ability, highlighting any source text ambiguities and inserting a comment to the effect that "this is my most logical interpretation".
If I know that both the source text and the translation are due to be published, I might point out the source text errors to the client or simply suggest that someone proofread the source text.
[Edited at 2015-03-30 19:35 GMT] ▲ Collapse
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I am happy when I receive a 'good text' (=in style and grammar, and yes, it sometimes happens!). Worst of all is that there are agencies that send such a text with a (horrible) TM, so a grid (on which I loose at lot of time correcting it + money).
Authors of especially technical texts know more about their profession than they do about their own language, Very often the text is written by a non native speaker (Swedish people are notorious for it, lookes almost like English, almost, ... See more I am happy when I receive a 'good text' (=in style and grammar, and yes, it sometimes happens!). Worst of all is that there are agencies that send such a text with a (horrible) TM, so a grid (on which I loose at lot of time correcting it + money).
Authors of especially technical texts know more about their profession than they do about their own language, Very often the text is written by a non native speaker (Swedish people are notorious for it, lookes almost like English, almost, but just try to translate it....).
At the moment I am working on a big EN-NL project. I understand all words, but what does the author wants to say?????
So, what I do is:
A) Always inform the agency about the (bad) quality of the source text.
B) Ask the agency if the client has more references, or bombard them with a lot of questions (What does the client means here or there?)
C) Translate more freely and using a lot of imagination.
The better the source text, the better the translation, and if I have to figure out the 'jibberish' I sometimes receive, I can't make 'Shakespeare' of it. ▲ Collapse
| | | | JOHN PENNEY (X)
Local time: 04:20
Portuguese to English
+ ...
| Depends on the source language, but most texts are pretty poor.It´s all part of the job!! | Mar 31, 2015 |
Welcome to the so-called translation "industry"!!! Well, that´s just what it is - hard industrial-type, back-breaking, generally low-paid work !!! In my 15 years as a virtually full-time "freelance" translator (Spanish and Portuguese to English), I have rarely come across a text that I could read through and say rightaway, "Wow, I understand every word, you are wonderful, voy a mandarte un beso". The vast majority of stuff that crosses my desk, even sometimes from respected major organizatio... See more Welcome to the so-called translation "industry"!!! Well, that´s just what it is - hard industrial-type, back-breaking, generally low-paid work !!! In my 15 years as a virtually full-time "freelance" translator (Spanish and Portuguese to English), I have rarely come across a text that I could read through and say rightaway, "Wow, I understand every word, you are wonderful, voy a mandarte un beso". The vast majority of stuff that crosses my desk, even sometimes from respected major organizations, often needs serious "pre-editing", which hardly anyone does. My main problem is not the words (as you all know, mainly rubbish if translated literally or by one of the so-called machine translating systems), it is how to interpret those words and the often crazy and disorganized concepts that go with them in order to convey the real sense of the text, in an appropriate style, in good English or whatever, to a monolingual reader (who could not care less about whether the original text was in Urdu or Albanian; if it sounds funny he will blame the translator). I´m sure all of you have experienced similar problems. The whole exercise is as much mind-reading as "translation". But I suppose that is what makes it interesting.
To get to this state of nirvana, regardless of the awfulness of the document, the standard advice is, I think, to: (i) get an initial inkling of what the author is trying to say by reading through the entire text slowly (it´s amazing how this raises or lowers your probably already depressed spirit after 50 pages); (ii) translate as well and as much as you can; (ii) leave loads of time (days if necessary) to "revise", looking at absolutely every relevant source you can find on the Net. It is remarkable how many "authors" simply copy or synthesize something off the Net. Your secret weapon is to rumble them by finding the quotation, reference or whatever and shoving it back into the text, or producing a synopsis (in a side note if necessary) for the benefit of the client/reader. In other words, I try to educate myself about the real meaning of the text in front of me, by browsing through the abbreviated books, articles, etc on the Net, and noting down important concepts, phrases etc that might come in useful. This seems to work better for me after I have struggled through the text, rather than before ; and (iii) you should sleep on it, and next day read though your masterpiece at least three times. Curiously enough, once you have suffered all this, you might even think that your finished text is not too bad afterall.
Like one of our colleagues in this forum, I have had feedback claiming that the translated version was an improvement on the original. But I´ve also got flack for trying to explain otherwise unintelligible material for the benefit of the poor end-reader. The most morale-deflating comment I ever received was "This cannot be right, you changed the order of all the bloody words!!! " ▲ Collapse
| | | | Ulrich Garn
United States
Local time: 00:20
English to German
+ ...
JOHN PENNEY wrote:
The whole exercise is as much mind-reading as "translation".
That is exactly it. We are all mind-readers.
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| Perfect translation | Mar 31, 2015 |
I prefer to do a perfect translation, to the best of my knowledge and ability, if even the source text is far from being perfect.
Contextual translation is needed, and a thorough terminological research is required.
I remember I had a client in Miami for whom I translated a novel from Spanish into English back in 2008.
We agreed that he would pay for every 2-3 chapters upon delivery, depending on the word count (number of pages).
He did not pay for the last portion, and j... See more I prefer to do a perfect translation, to the best of my knowledge and ability, if even the source text is far from being perfect.
Contextual translation is needed, and a thorough terminological research is required.
I remember I had a client in Miami for whom I translated a novel from Spanish into English back in 2008.
We agreed that he would pay for every 2-3 chapters upon delivery, depending on the word count (number of pages).
He did not pay for the last portion, and just disappeared.
6 months later he contacted me complaining that he is very unhappy because he gave the second volume to another translator, and the quality was absolutely different!
"I was crying over the book while reading your translation, and completely lost my interest in it after I read the first page done by another translator!"
He wrote that he would not pay me for the remaining unpaid chapters until I deliver him the complete translation of the second volume, otherwise he would hot assign me the task!
Of course, I disagreed because it was a lot of work (ca. 300 pages).
This is just an example when the translation is even better than the original text because the book was written by a girl from a Mexican village who was semi-literate and wrote with a lot of grammar and stylistic mistakes but wanted to reveal the story of her life to the world. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Tom in London
United Kingdom
Local time: 08:20
Member (2008)
Italian to English
| Drum roll.......... | Mar 31, 2015 |
"A flexible affiliation firmly but carefully linking the two parties must be achieved, dissolving the artificial theory-practice schism that has been an unhelpful obstacle to progressive dialogue regarding architectural education. This compact must have the litheness to cope with the vagaries of the economic cycle but irrespective of financial fluctuation, wed creative practice to the study of architecture; ultimately, everyone involved in architecture shares the same ambitions to create those i... See more "A flexible affiliation firmly but carefully linking the two parties must be achieved, dissolving the artificial theory-practice schism that has been an unhelpful obstacle to progressive dialogue regarding architectural education. This compact must have the litheness to cope with the vagaries of the economic cycle but irrespective of financial fluctuation, wed creative practice to the study of architecture; ultimately, everyone involved in architecture shares the same ambitions to create those inspirational civic, social, and cultural spaces defining civilised societies."
(David Gloster, Director of Education at the Royal Insititute of British Architects).
Would anyone care to try translating this into another language, preserving its spirit and intent?
 ▲ Collapse
| | | | | How true, how much so true. And then this... | Mar 31, 2015 |
Will expound (?!) later, but to all your woes & solutions, most of which I share, add the situation where the author/s of source text write (or translate themselves or other, orig. source authors) in the target language. I. e. you get a curate's egg text of sophisticated phrasing, fine thinking, fuzzy thinking, guessed-at school English, haywire syntax, misconnected ideas... and a rush deadline. Think underpaid post-post-Thatcher capital-driven Academia...
Sample forthcoming. Until anon a... See more Will expound (?!) later, but to all your woes & solutions, most of which I share, add the situation where the author/s of source text write (or translate themselves or other, orig. source authors) in the target language. I. e. you get a curate's egg text of sophisticated phrasing, fine thinking, fuzzy thinking, guessed-at school English, haywire syntax, misconnected ideas... and a rush deadline. Think underpaid post-post-Thatcher capital-driven Academia...
Sample forthcoming. Until anon and Uatsch zis späis - Best for now - S. in Germany ▲ Collapse
| | | | John Colangelo
United States
Local time: 03:20
Member (2006)
Arabic to English
+ ...
| Just translate the text... | Mar 31, 2015 |
If you and the client are very close, then as a professional courtesy you can make an observation if you want. But you should remember that you aren´t hired to correct the text but to translate it.
If you understand the text, then just translate it.
If the text is so poorly written that you cannot understand it, then politely tell them that the text has many errors and you cannot understand it. However, my experience tells me that they could care less about the quali... See more If you and the client are very close, then as a professional courtesy you can make an observation if you want. But you should remember that you aren´t hired to correct the text but to translate it.
If you understand the text, then just translate it.
If the text is so poorly written that you cannot understand it, then politely tell them that the text has many errors and you cannot understand it. However, my experience tells me that they could care less about the quality of the text.
Thank you for the discussion topic.
Yours,
John ▲ Collapse
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| good and bad handling of source texts | Mar 31, 2015 |
This is indeed a very "systemic" - meaning basic - question.
The source texts that translators get are, all in all, a cross section of the average linguistic and stylistic level of the general or also specialized public in the respective source language community. And that level will normally be less qualified in linguistic terms than that of a "language person" that a translator is. - The chances that translators are getting texts that they themselves could have been writing in bet... See more This is indeed a very "systemic" - meaning basic - question.
The source texts that translators get are, all in all, a cross section of the average linguistic and stylistic level of the general or also specialized public in the respective source language community. And that level will normally be less qualified in linguistic terms than that of a "language person" that a translator is. - The chances that translators are getting texts that they themselves could have been writing in better quality are thus by necessity rather high.
I think that it goes without saying that the translator will simply iron out, without talking much about it, all the obvious grammatical and stylistic rubbish that comes his way. - In cases of minor terminological indadequacy a "helping hand" of the translator may be a nice gesture - while significant imprcesions or even errors should, if possible, be discussed with the agency, the client or the author.
All the aforesaid is rather part and parcel of the job or business. - But there is another and rather problematic side of this medal. Someone in this discussion said already that translation is rather all the time interpretiation, and got even consent for this view. - But I am sure that this, as a basic concept, can be utterly misleading.
A translator or interpreter should not consider himself to be a soothsayer whose job is to bring clarity into everything that actually is, or that he alone believes to be, ambiguous in a source text.
In a recent En > De Kudoz question -
http://www.proz.com/kudoz/english_to_german/idioms_maxims_sayings/5812838-so_its_a_big_city.html
- about a colloquial text a proposed - and selected - translation for the source sentence "So, it's a big city." reads, in back-translation "So what/You do not say so - that's a mere coincidence/(that) does not matter (here)!"
The little sentence "So, it's a big city." has not been "badly written". It is a short remark in plain, good English. In the given context there could have been some innuendo it that sentence. But it should not be the job of a translator to drag that hidden meaning into the open, according to his own - good or bad - understanding. - An intended ambiguity in a source text should remain so in target. While unravelling it could get tantamount to take the salt - or the sugar, for that matter - out of the soup.
In short. - Ever present minor flaws of syntax or style should be set straightened out by the translator without making too much fuss about them. Terminological matters could be cured or should be discussed according to the circumstances. -
But it is not the job of a translator to rewrite the source - according to his own gusto, better - or worse - understanding. ▲ Collapse
| | | | | I sure would | Mar 31, 2015 |
Tom in London wrote: "A flexible affiliation firmly but carefully linking the two parties must be achieved, dissolving the artificial theory-practice schism that has been an unhelpful obstacle to progressive dialogue regarding architectural education. This compact must have the litheness to cope with the vagaries of the economic cycle but irrespective of financial fluctuation, wed creative practice to the study of architecture; ultimately, everyone involved in architecture shares the same ambitions to create those inspirational civic, social, and cultural spaces defining civilised societies." (David Gloster, Director of Education at the Royal Insititute of British Architects). Would anyone care to try translating this into another language, preserving its spirit and intent?
And I would relish it. - This is an elegantly floating text. Every word hits a taste bud on my tongue and the whole is like a good gulp of excellent wine or liquor.
The above may sound like a joke or mockery, to some. But I mean it. - If the quoted text would be considered by someone as "bad writing" - while indeed it is excellent - then I wonder what good writing would be for him.
| | | | Tom in London
United Kingdom
Local time: 08:20
Member (2008)
Italian to English
John Colangelo wrote:
....., my experience tells me that they could care less about the quality of the text.
I suspect you meant to write "couldn't".
In principle I agree with what you say, but if the original text is meaningless and obscurantist, and I dutifully produce a meaningless, obscurantist translation, will I then be criticised by the end user for having produced a badly written document? That's the dilemma.
[Edited at 2015-03-31 09:13 GMT]
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