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Has anyone heard of companies giving tests to potential translators before they employ them?
Thread poster: Roisin Ni Cheallaigh (X)
Katalin Szilárd
Katalin Szilárd  Identity Verified
Hungary
Local time: 01:34
English to Hungarian
+ ...
Questions Jan 21, 2019

Robert Rietvelt wrote:

Slobodan Kozarčić wrote:



[Edited at 2019-01-21 00:24 GMT]

Although I don' like it.
Maybe we should ask agencies to test pay us a small sum without us doing any job for them in return?

[Edited at 2019-01-21 00:25 GMT]

[Edited at 2019-01-21 00:27 GMT]


Why not? Trust in this case is a 2-way street. They want to know my abilities as translator, and I want to know their professionality as company. Therefore I always charge them for a test. Only seems fair.

[Edited at 2019-01-21 10:13 GMT]


1) Non-paid: Would you go to a lawyer and ask him to do a small case for you for free to check his/her skills?
Or would you go to a physician saying: "Hey, if you can cure this small illness for me for free of course, I'll bring my whole family to you."

2) Paid: If you send a paid test translation , how do you know whether the proofreader has the skills to make the proofreading?

3) Non-paid/Paid: If your test has a positive result, how do you know whether you will be the one who will receive the job and not a translator with a lower rate?

Too many open questions...




[Edited at 2019-01-21 10:58 GMT]


Angie Garbarino
Maja_K
 
Jacobus Lavooij
Jacobus Lavooij
Sweden
Local time: 01:34
English to Dutch
Normal practice... Jan 21, 2019

Frankly, I would frown upon a company that would NOT want to test me. Tests should be very short though. In fact, it could be one or two sentences which are a little complex with terminology that is specific to a subject. I have been testing translators before myself and I know if someone is a good translator or not within the first few sentences.

IrinaN
Kay Denney
Maja_K
 
Mirko Mainardi
Mirko Mainardi  Identity Verified
Italy
Local time: 01:34
Member
English to Italian
The responsible thing to do Jan 21, 2019

Joseph Tein wrote:

Any serious/responsible translation company would and should ask people to take a brief test, because what a translator writes in her/his profile proves nothing; people can say anything they want and still be poor translators. There's nothing wrong with asking you to take a brief unpaid test (maybe 500 words or so) to see what you're capable of. I have much more respect for companies that want me to take a test before they'll start sending me work.

Another company just asked me to send a copy of prior work (minus identifying information); I think that's also an appropriate way of checking someone's quality. The two companies that send me most of my work both asked me to take a test before deciding to trust me with their projects (and now I get to evaluate other linguists' tests!). It makes complete sense.



IMHO "the responsible thing to do" would be for agencies to do extensive research about translators' backgrounds in order to shortlist the most interesting profiles for that type of work/project, and then, 'the fair thing to do' would be to request paid tests from those translators (and the test could consist of a short 'real' project of the same type the translators would be asked to complete if selected).

Besides, how common is it to request "free tests" from doctors, lawyers, plumbers, carpenters, etc.?


Elena Aclasto
Maja_K
 
IrinaN
IrinaN
United States
Local time: 19:34
English to Russian
+ ...
Tests are double-edge swords Jan 21, 2019

I apologize in advance but I find all those comparisons to plumbers, lawyers etc quite ridiculous.

I can bring 3 companies into my place to give me a free estimate on any general contractor jobs. I can get a free legal consultation (likely not with the top lawyer firm in town but the same goes for us - the best of us are often free of tests or would go for it only for a client that is really worthy of dealing with). Serious mid-size petroleum companies spend many thousands, sometime
... See more
I apologize in advance but I find all those comparisons to plumbers, lawyers etc quite ridiculous.

I can bring 3 companies into my place to give me a free estimate on any general contractor jobs. I can get a free legal consultation (likely not with the top lawyer firm in town but the same goes for us - the best of us are often free of tests or would go for it only for a client that is really worthy of dealing with). Serious mid-size petroleum companies spend many thousands, sometimes tens of thousands of dollars on a bid only to get 2 sentences back - Sorry, it won't be you. Have a nice day! The test is our proposal, there is no difference in basic business rules and practices for ore mining, cookie baking or translating, a market is a market. Please, spare me the pathos about our divine, not-for-mere-mortals profession. It may very well be so but a market is still a market and we are running a business here.

1. Some editing can serve as a perfect and timely repellent - after seeing it or simply having been told that "you are not good enough", quite a few true professionals here can count their blessings and be happy that it cost them only 250 words and not 2500 or 25000.

2. The tests are not free for the testers - they have to compile it and pay someone to read all of it (Lord, have mercy on them!) plus pay for the PM's time.

3. The editors are not our language professors, and when one wants to get a review or something, one should enclose the check for editor's time. The clients are not there to train or comfort us. As Jacobus has rightfully mentioned, it takes 30 seconds to see if they do or do not want to deal with us any further, and they will not spend an extra second on reviews and explanations only to drown in fighting off swarms of knuckleheads who'd keep claiming that their atrocious creations are very good, and demanding all kinds of proof. Clients have a business to run. No sane, reputable, serious client would reject a good translator when one is found and really needed. Unless they are bottom-payers, of course:-). Another credit to the repellent theory.

4. In 30 years I have seen and heard both brilliant and awful performances but ALL resumes were sooooo impressive. Nothing matters to me before I read or hear a colleague. A resume is a great start and a definite call for checking the person out if all the right qualifications are claimed but nothing more.

I would agree that Proz provides an access to brilliant professionals requiring no tests, and the clients should consider themselves lucky that those guys were available at the moment and honored the offer but such jewels are far and between indeed.

The 64-dollar question always is - who demands the test?

Resume - we need to keep climbing up until our names and reputations will require no tests to feed the family. There is no other way. It's capitalism, dude:-)
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Kay-Viktor Stegemann
Nadja Balogh
Christopher Schröder
Maja_K
Sandra & Kenneth Grossman
Robert Carter
 
Katalin Szilárd
Katalin Szilárd  Identity Verified
Hungary
Local time: 01:34
English to Hungarian
+ ...
Companies Jan 21, 2019

IrinaN wrote:


I can bring 3 companies into my place to give me a free estimate on any general contractor jobs. I can get a free legal consultation (likely not with the top lawyer firm in town but the same goes for us - the best of us are often free of tests or would go for it only for a client that is really worthy of dealing with). Serious mid-size petroleum companies spend many thousands, sometimes tens of thousands of dollars on a bid only to get 2 sentences back - Sorry, it won't be you. Have a nice day!




You are writing about companies. A company can spend a lot (usually from loan): marketing, free tests, free test products etc. A company consists of more people's work as one and they are paid salaries. Ask anyone from those companies to allow a deduction from their salaries to do free tests.
A company can do that because it will produce this money from somewhere else. If not, then not the individuals' salaries will be lower but the company's profit will be less. Since most companies depend on credit, it isn't so "painful".

[Edited at 2019-01-21 14:01 GMT]


 
IrinaN
IrinaN
United States
Local time: 19:34
English to Russian
+ ...
A company Jan 21, 2019

Katalin Szilárd wrote:

You are writing about companies. A company can spend a lot (usually from loan): marketing, free tests, free test products etc. A company consists of more people's work as one and they are paid salaries. Ask anyone from those companies to allow a deduction from their salaries to do free tests.
A company can do that because it will produce this money from somewhere else. If not, then not the individuals' salaries will be lower but the company's profit will be less. Since most companies depend on credit, it isn't so "painful".

[Edited at 2019-01-21 14:01 GMT]


may be a father and a son in greasy overalls or a family of Mexican laborers, legal, of course, with no bank on the horizon eager to give them a loan


Kaspars Melkis
 
Thomas Pfann
Thomas Pfann  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 00:34
Member (2006)
English to German
+ ...
Different types of test translation Jan 21, 2019

Katalin Szilárd wrote:
A company can do that because it will produce this money from somewhere else.


And the same is true for us – even for those freelancers who don't like to see themselves as a company.

On a slightly different note: Don't confuse the two different types of test translation - those sent out by agencies (or occasionally other companies) to test a new translator before using this translator's services, and those sent out by end clients before using an agency's services.

The first type of test translation is often expected to be done for free and some (not all!) translators are happy to do it for free because it is effectively a marketing tool for translators trying to get a new client. In this case, the translator invests time to land a new contract.

The second type of test translation is basically the same but one step further up in the chain. The translation agency might not charge their (potential) client for the test translation because it is a means to get work from that client. But by the same reasoning, they will, of course, pay the translator (and they will use a trusted translator, not try out a new translator). In fact, they will often pay more than usual because they will want top-notch quality in order to impress the potential client. This is the agency's investment in order to land a new contract.


Christopher Schröder
IrinaN
Georgi Kovachev
Maja_K
 
Katalin Szilárd
Katalin Szilárd  Identity Verified
Hungary
Local time: 01:34
English to Hungarian
+ ...
Standard - it should be Jan 21, 2019

Thomas Pfann wrote:

But by the same reasoning, they will, of course, pay the translator (and they will use a trusted translator, not try out a new translator). In fact, they will often pay more than usual because they will want top-notch quality in order to impress the potential client. This is the agency's investment in order to land a new contract.


If all translation agencies worked like that ....
Yes, this should be the standard, the normal. How a good translation agency should work...


 
Mirko Mainardi
Mirko Mainardi  Identity Verified
Italy
Local time: 01:34
Member
English to Italian
An estimate is not a test... Jan 21, 2019

IrinaN wrote:

I apologize in advance but I find all those comparisons to plumbers, lawyers etc quite ridiculous.

I can bring 3 companies into my place to give me a free estimate on any general contractor jobs. I can get a free legal consultation (likely not with the top lawyer firm in town but the same goes for us - the best of us are often free of tests or would go for it only for a client that is really worthy of dealing with). Serious mid-size petroleum companies spend many thousands, sometimes tens of thousands of dollars on a bid only to get 2 sentences back - Sorry, it won't be you. Have a nice day! The test is our proposal, there is no difference in basic business rules and practices for ore mining, cookie baking or translating, a market is a market. Please, spare me the pathos about our divine, not-for-mere-mortals profession. It may very well be so but a market is still a market and we are running a business here.

...

I would agree that Proz provides an access to brilliant professionals requiring no tests, and the clients should consider themselves lucky that those guys were available at the moment and honored the offer but such jewels are far and between indeed.


Ok, so you "find all those comparisons to plumbers, lawyers etc quite ridiculous", only to compare a test with a quote (from a company)...

If someone asks me how much I would charge for X words of content Y and how much it would take me, I give them a quote. That is my "proposal", not a test...

That said, I have no issue with short (unpaid) tests for projects/clients I am interested in, but the discussion was about best practices (see Jospeh's comment) rather than the trite and matter-of-factly "it is what it is"/"it's capitalism, baby". Even multinationals running sweatshops and employing child labor "are capitalism, baby". Well, so what?

A company that is willing to invest time in researching candidates and remunerating their time is, in my opinion, 'worth' more than one that just rakes in hundreds of "free tests" to "add people to databases" or whatever... (also linked to your #2). You think otherwise, perfect, but your comment actually doesn't provide a logical explanation for that.

There are clients (especially end clients) who seem to understand that, "but such jewels are" few and far between "indeed".


Katalin Szilárd
 
S_G_C
S_G_C
Romania
Local time: 02:34
English to Romanian
Sure Jan 21, 2019

Roisin Ni Cheallaigh wrote:
Has anyone heard of companies giving tests to potential translators before they employ them?


This is as old as the hills.


 
S_G_C
S_G_C
Romania
Local time: 02:34
English to Romanian
Paid??? Jan 21, 2019

Roisin Ni Cheallaigh wrote:

A company in Portugal didn't tell me that:
1. That it was an unpaid translation.
2 I found that out after I sent an invoice for payment to them.


[Edited at 2019-01-20 12:58 GMT]


Nobody has ever paid me for any translation test.


Slobodan Kozarčić
 
Colleen Roach, PhD
Colleen Roach, PhD  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 17:34
French to English
+ ...
Just did a test...mixed feelings... Jan 21, 2019

Well, I just did a test for the first time and I have mixed feelings about this. Probably wouldn't do this again --also had to put $20 in my "wallet" to bid on this project. First of all, the test was not long, and when I saw the no. of bidders before this was open to non-PROZ members (my case), there was not a high number (about 15). It ended up with about 20 people bidding. So, it was a calculated risk for me. I have never before bid on a project, as usually the no. of people already bidding o... See more
Well, I just did a test for the first time and I have mixed feelings about this. Probably wouldn't do this again --also had to put $20 in my "wallet" to bid on this project. First of all, the test was not long, and when I saw the no. of bidders before this was open to non-PROZ members (my case), there was not a high number (about 15). It ended up with about 20 people bidding. So, it was a calculated risk for me. I have never before bid on a project, as usually the no. of people already bidding on a job is too high and I figure the chances of even having my bid/proposal looked at are slim to none.

Maybe there were not many people bidding because the test, although short (about 4 long sentences), was fairly difficult. It was Spanish to English but it actually had phrases in Latin and French; you didn't necessarily have to translate these but you had to figure this all out, i.e. what to translate & what not to translate. There were also entries in an international library catalog, so there was that: figuring out/researching if these were to be translated or left as is.

Then, in addition to the test, there's the resume to send, an email to write, etc.

I spent a fair amount of time on this, as the project seemed interesting. I didn't get the project, which I learned (of course) simply by not hearing from the outsourcer.

The latter --simply not hearing from the outsourcer -- and the depersonalized aspect of this, is probably what bothered me the most (more than spending quite a bit of time on the test, the $$$ I put in my PROZ "wallet," or even not getting the job.

This seemed to be a small outsourcer's project -- perhaps a literary or academic journal in Spain --and I thought: they had to have realized that it took some time to take their test and send the cv, etc. Why couldn't they have taken a minute or two to send an email saying "Thanks for applying. We appreciate your time, etc., but have chosen another translator."

But that's probably asking way too much these days...

My feeling about tests now -- wouldn't do this again, unless it was paid. If a company/agency is not sure they want to work with you, then they could just give you a small project at first and then see how that goes.
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Julie Lenfant
 
Maxi Schwarz
Maxi Schwarz  Identity Verified
Local time: 19:34
German to English
+ ...
A recent experience and some thoughts Jan 22, 2019

(not necessarily in that order)

When I did my certification exam years ago, the prerequisite for even writing the exam was to have a translation degree or equivalent, preferably several years in the field, and standards were commensurate. Material for the exam was chosen by experienced, qualified individuals who were experts in each language pair, and graded by the same. If a client ("outsourcer") wants me to do a test, do they have the knowledge to create a test, and then examine
... See more
(not necessarily in that order)

When I did my certification exam years ago, the prerequisite for even writing the exam was to have a translation degree or equivalent, preferably several years in the field, and standards were commensurate. Material for the exam was chosen by experienced, qualified individuals who were experts in each language pair, and graded by the same. If a client ("outsourcer") wants me to do a test, do they have the knowledge to create a test, and then examine the results, in my pair, and on that subject?

Recently I was contacted by a company that wanted me to do a test, and came back a second time with the test. I was curious so had a look at it. The first step in a translation, before even accepting it, is to look at the material, do a bit of research of applicable - there were some acronyms. In less than a minute I was staring at the entire text, in two languages, on-line.
1) the test was useless, since anyone else could find the material, and cut and paste
2) whoever created the test, did not have the knowledge to guide them, that Canadian government policies tend to be bilingual, and readily found on-line.
Begging the question: would those grading the tests have better knowledge on examining tests, than those who had created it?

I warned the company, and did not hear back from them.

I have acted as co-examiner, and I have been consulted on text selection in the past.

There is the added practical matter that if we do free tests for every client that crosses our path, we would have little time left to do our work. There is a reason for exams and certification, just like for professionals in other fields who have their licenses etc. I wouldn't even know how to create a test for my future accountant.
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Colleen Roach, PhD
 
DZiW (X)
DZiW (X)
Ukraine
English to Russian
+ ...
Equality of participants Jan 22, 2019

Irina, assuming that middlemen are always perfect and don't have to prove anything, freely give "free" tests and rigorously check it at their own expense, make their 'fair' rules, and selflessly provide valuable services even at a big loss... What a 25/8 sacrifice)

Let's say, all parties are really equal, so what is a "free" test for an agency, I wonder? However, most agencies don't reply to CVs/questions, don't stop sending "free" tests because of almost every new pro
... See more
Irina, assuming that middlemen are always perfect and don't have to prove anything, freely give "free" tests and rigorously check it at their own expense, make their 'fair' rules, and selflessly provide valuable services even at a big loss... What a 25/8 sacrifice)

Let's say, all parties are really equal, so what is a "free" test for an agency, I wonder? However, most agencies don't reply to CVs/questions, don't stop sending "free" tests because of almost every new project or client, can't do marketing properly, don't negotiate anything with contractors (translators) nor offer "best" rates, don't have any in-house language or other specialist, don't provide useful services, and don't promise anything--no guarantees, just risky over-outsourcing.

Indeed, one should consider risks and make informed biz decisions, but a "free test" abuse is politically correct for a "business fraud"
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Heinrich Pesch
Heinrich Pesch  Identity Verified
Finland
Local time: 02:34
Member (2003)
Finnish to German
+ ...
Of course Jan 22, 2019

Roisin Ni Cheallaigh wrote:

When I say employ I mean as freelance translators.
The majority of companies that I have dealt with don't give translators tests.
They put their faith in my translation standard, that is why I found it unusual.

In case of freelance the test is usually send as a short sample of text and the candidate is given a deadline for sending the translation, which is then evaluated by specialists. Serious business is ready to pay for the sample translation, others ask for "free" sample translations. It's up to you how much time you'd like to spend on free translation tests. They are often a waste of time.
There are also outsourcers who divide whole translations into a bunch of free tests which are handed out to freelancers and put together and sent to the customer with an invoice attached. This is a well known "business model".


Katalin Szilárd
 
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Has anyone heard of companies giving tests to potential translators before they employ them?







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