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what's your opinion on MT and all the availiable translating software?
Thread poster: Asia_k
Asia_k
Local time: 13:36
Polish to German
+ ...
Nov 1, 2005

i need es many your opinions as possible of MT and all the availiable translating software. some helpful links to this topic also requested.
thx
Asia

[Subject edited by staff or moderator 2005-11-01 11:49]


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Lawyer-Linguist  Identity Verified
Portugal
Local time: 12:36
Dutch to English
+ ...
For what purpose do you need translators' opinions? Nov 1, 2005

Hi,

It would be helpful if you state specifically why you need our opinions.

Are you conducting research, planning to buy software or do you need to know the differences between MT and TM software perhaps?

Try expanding a bit on your posting and I'm sure you'll find people more willing and able to participate.

Tks
Debbie

[Edited at 2005-11-01 11:54]

[Edited at 2005-11-01 11:54]


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Victor Dewsbery  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 13:36
German to English
+ ...
Another thread on the same subject Nov 1, 2005

http://www.proz.com/topic/37742

It would be helpful if you gave some input first (what do you need, why, what is your opinion, what do you already know).


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Siegfried Armbruster  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 13:36
Member (2004)
English to German
+ ...
Tried it, no help for the work I am doing Nov 1, 2005

I tried Prompt, T1 4.0/5.0, Systran. They are of no use in the area I work in.
My opinion,

Regards

Siegfried


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Asia_k
Local time: 13:36
Polish to German
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
my purpose. Nov 1, 2005

i'm writting a piece of work,for my masters degree on this topic. one part of it is going to be a set of opinnions collected between professional (or not) translators, annonymous of course.

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Victor Dewsbery  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 13:36
German to English
+ ...
And ... ? Nov 1, 2005

Bu³a wrote:

i'm writting a piece of work,for my masters degree on this topic. one part of it is going to be a set of opinnions collected between professional (or not) translators, annonymous of course.


So what is your question?


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Asia_k
Local time: 13:36
Polish to German
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
so.... Nov 1, 2005

so Victor i see you want to help me, but you don't quite understand what a need.
i'm asking you and others to give your opinion on MT: do you use it in your work, if yes than which programms in what issues or topics, in what degree is MT and other software helpful, does it make work easier, or harder as you have to iprove the translation by yourself; maybe you find MT a threat?
ps. thanks for the link - i find it very usefull for me.


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Lawyer-Linguist  Identity Verified
Portugal
Local time: 12:36
Dutch to English
+ ...
Well ...... Nov 1, 2005

1. I'd expect at Master's level that your summation of the research question would be more succinct but to try and answer your questions:

1.1 No, I don't use MT at all in my work - MT being machine translation.

1.2 MT is not at all helpful (but do you not perhaps mean TM - translation memory software?)

1.3 MT, to the extent that it is currently developed, is not a threat at all.

If you mean TM software, please clarify.
Debbie


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Victor Dewsbery  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 13:36
German to English
+ ...
A few points Nov 1, 2005

First of all, there is a difference between MT and TM

MT = machine translation, i.e. the computer tries to produce a final version. The program contains both terminology and the grammar rules (and normally each program only handles one language pair). There are 2 purposes for this sort of program:
1. Gist reading, i.e. I want to know roughly (very roughly) what a text in a different language is about, so I put it through a general purpose MT program. The quality is very rough and ready, and after reading it I may or may not know more about what the text said.
2. First drafting, to be post-edited by a human translator/editor. The high-end systems used in this field always involve post editing (see the other thread I gave the link to).

Sometimes people (normally non-linguists) think that a computer translation is good enough for publication, and they post it on the Web without any editing. That is where most of our jokes about machine translation howlers come from.

TM = translation memory. Here, I build up a database with the work I have done (sentence pairs and terminology entries). The program does not itself contain any language content - it merely provides the structure, and I must provide the content. The program does not offer any grammar rules, it is simply a memory database. The program helps me by remembering the material and suggesting anything that is close enough to the new source sentence. The human translator must always review, edit and approve the sentence.

As to experience and systems used, I constantly use a TM program (DejaVu X) and will continue to do so.

Some years ago I picked up a cheap version of an MT program for my language pair from a supermarket (Personal Translator 2000 from Linguatec). I sometimes call it up when I'm tired, and perhaps use it for about eight to ten sentences. On average this generally gives me one sentence that can be used (usually after a couple of changes), one or two sentences with good vocabulary suggestions but rotten syntax, one or two good laughs because the program got everything wrong, and the rest are throwaway solutions because the program got the wrong end of the stick, so I have to do it myself anyway.
After a few such sentences I can't take it any longer and go back to my normal way of working.
In other words, I use it for light relief when I reach a low point in motivation.
A couple of times I have done comparisons between PT2000 and various freebie web translation services (some of them from systems such as Systran which cost many times more). My cheapo supermarket package is just as good as the best of them (sometimes better).

For what it's worth, I have an article "Beware of the computer" on my website in German and English (http://www.dewsbery.de). Needs updating and I didn't program the links properly so they don't work, but you may find it interesting.

[Edited at 2005-11-01 15:19]


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Robert Tucker
United Kingdom
Local time: 12:36
German to English
+ ...
OpenLogos Nov 1, 2005

I've recently been experimenting with OpenLogos which has just been made available under an Open Source licence for Linux.

On a German to English translation it was a little better than Systran/Babelfish but less markedly on an English to Spanish piece.

One wonders if it might be a good idea if the output wasn't available as a tmx file, so that one could feed it into one's CAT tool and in that way decide whether one wanted to use its output or not. (I believe some CAT tools already link to Machine Translation software.)

http://logos-os.dfki.de/


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Victor Dewsbery  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 13:36
German to English
+ ...
Links between CAT and MT (are there any?) Nov 1, 2005

Robert Tucker wrote:
One wonders if it might be a good idea if the output wasn't available as a tmx file, so that one could feed it into one's CAT tool and in that way decide whether one wanted to use its output or not. (I believe some CAT tools already link to Machine Translation software.)


I believe SDLX used to have an MT link in, but then dropped it. As far as I know, the CAT suppliers do not currently offer any MT connections.

My cheapo supermarket MT package works in the clipboard, so it is easy to paste the translated text into the target segment (in the rare cases when it is worth doing so).

I believe that one version of Langenscheidt's MT package claims to go the other way (i.e. create a translation memory as a by-product of the MT program). But I have no knowledge of how good or bad it is.


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Jeff Allen  Identity Verified
France
Local time: 13:36
Multiplelanguages
+ ...
posts describing combining MT and TM Nov 1, 2005

Robert Tucker wrote:
One wonders if it might be a good idea if the output wasn't available as a tmx file, so that one could feed it into one's CAT tool and in that way decide whether one wanted to use its output or not. (I believe some CAT tools already link to Machine Translation software.)


Victor Dewsbery wrote:
I believe SDLX used to have an MT link in, but then dropped it. As far as I know, the CAT suppliers do not currently offer any MT connections.


see:

SDL MT software
http://www.proz.com/post/213153#213153

Inbound vs Outbound MT systems and software
http://www.proz.com/post/190126#190126

Download the PDF file of the Powerpoint presentation on Inbound vs. Outbound Translation and go to the last section that describes each of the main commercial MT software packages based on their Inbound-type and Outbound-type modules.

Victor Dewsbery wrote:
I believe that one version of Langenscheidt's MT package claims to go the other way (i.e. create a translation memory as a by-product of the MT program). But I have no knowledge of how good or bad it is.



As for the topic of MT + TM, this has been covered in several of my previous posts:

Wordfast + Machine Translation
http://www.proz.com/post/241987#241987

TM vs. MT
http://www.proz.com/post/174713#174713

combining MT and TM
http://www.proz.com/post/213153#213153


I can't remember if any of my previous posts indicate the new internal TM modules in Systran v5. I've probably indicated the Associated Memory (TM-based module) in PROMT v6 (and higher) which is mentioned in Tom Wassmer's and my review of that tool (available under the PROMT section at http://www.geocities.com/langtecheval/)


Jeff
http://jeffallen.chez.tiscali.fr/about-jeffallen.htm


[Edited at 2005-11-03 22:47]


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Jeff Allen  Identity Verified
France
Local time: 13:36
Multiplelanguages
+ ...
links to posts on MT postediting Nov 1, 2005

Victor Dewsbery wrote:
MT = machine translation, i.e. the computer tries to produce a final version. The program contains both terminology and the grammar rules (and normally each program only handles one language pair). There are 2 purposes for this sort of program:
....
2. First drafting, to be post-edited by a human translator/editor. The high-end systems used in this field always involve post editing (see the other thread I gave the link to).


several posts on the topic of MT postediting are the following:

MT is part of CAT & MT postediting is worthwhile
http://www.proz.com/post/189873#189873

new overview article on MT postediting
http://www.proz.com/post/212760#212760

and everything at the MT Postediting site:
http://www.geocities.com/mtpostediting

Jeff
http://jeffallen.chez.tiscali.fr/about-jeffallen.htm


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Jeff Allen  Identity Verified
France
Local time: 13:36
Multiplelanguages
+ ...
links to previous posts on MT productivity and usefulness Nov 1, 2005

Bu³a wrote:
i'm asking you and others to give your opinion on MT: do you use it in your work, if yes than which programms in what issues or topics, in what degree is MT and other software helpful, does it make work easier, or harder as you have to iprove the translation by yourself; maybe you find MT a threat?


Previous posts on Proz that answer several of your questions above:

Machine Translation: yes used for professional translation work
http://www.proz.com/post/177427#177427

MT for production translation jobs
http://www.proz.com/post/227610#227610

MT and newspaper/newswire headlines
http://www.proz.com/post/192815#192815

MT user case study showing that MT is not useless
http://www.proz.com/post/174679#174679

a case study
http://www.proz.com/post/211575#211575

MT is part of CAT & MT postediting is worthwhile
http://www.proz.com/post/189873#189873

upfront work needed for good MT results
http://www.proz.com/post/213455#213455

Machine translation not to replace translators
http://www.proz.com/post/189708#189708

using the MT backtranslation strategy
http://www.proz.com/post/192648#192648


Much concerning productivity with MT tools is due to training:

Using MT software programs
http://www.proz.com/post/174673#174673

training on MT tools
http://www.proz.com/post/177832#177832

3 factors to successful use of CAT tools
http://www.proz.com/post/174729#174729

and a few other related posts:

best translation tool is a hybrid system
http://www.proz.com/post/189738#189738

using online Machine Translation tools
http://www.proz.com/post/189696#189696

MT portals
http://www.proz.com/post/265985#265985


Software reviews of all MT tools (many written up by professional translators) are at the Language Technology Software Evaluation/Review site:
http://www.geocities.com/langtecheval

And sets of MT tips for a range of MT tools are at:

MT software tips-help (new) web site
http://www.proz.com/post/238073#238073


Hope all of those links help direct your reading.


Jeff
http://jeffallen.chez.tiscali.fr/about-jeffallen.htm


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Asia_k
Local time: 13:36
Polish to German
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
thank's. Nov 2, 2005

i'm realy very grateful,thank's for all your halp - especially you- Jeff!:) the only problem is that i'm wrriting my work in german... so a hard tanslatig work is waiting for me, but hey,it can't be too easy...:)

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