Towards a European Master's in Translation Thread poster: Heinrich Pesch
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Heinrich Pesch 
Finland
Local time: 18:41
Member (2003)
Finnish to German
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I read this title for a conference and simply do not understand why there is an apostroph after master. Can someone explain please?
Regards
Heinrich
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Maciek Drobka
Poland
Local time: 17:41
Member (2006)
English to Polish
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| Short for 'Master's Degree' | Dec 7, 2006 |
Hi,
'Master's' is short for 'Master's Degree', not only in translation .
Maciek
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| European Master's degree | Dec 7, 2006 |
Probably it means European Master's degree.
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Clare Barnes
Sweden
Local time: 17:41
Swedish to English
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Heinrich Pesch
Finland
Local time: 18:41
Member (2003)
Finnish to German
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER |
Lia Fail (X)
Spain
Local time: 17:41
Spanish to English
+ ...
| this is "the grocer's apostrophe" :-) | Dec 7, 2006 |
Heinrich Pesch wrote:
I read this title for a conference and simply do not understand why there is an apostroph after master. Can someone explain please?
Regards
Heinrich
Where to stick grocer's apostrophe | The Guardian | Guardian Unlimited
We have finally got the hang of the grocer's apostrophe. ... It was dubbed "the grocer's apostrophe" because of its unnecessary use in plural words on shop ...
www.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,3604,1256380,00.html - 40k - Cached - Similar pages
Flickr: Grocer's Apostrophe
About Grocer's Apostrophe. Why can`t people tell the difference between plurals and ... Feed – Subscribe to Grocer's Apostrophe discussion threads ...
www.flickr.com/groups/77173807@N00/ - 23k - Cached - Similar pages
Flickr: The Grocer's Apostrophe Pool
the Grocer's Apostrophe group icon · Grocer's Apostrophe ... Feed – Subscribe to photos from the Grocer's Apostrophe pool. Add to My Yahoo! ...
www.flickr.com/groups/77173807@N00/pool/ - 29k - Cached - Similar pages
[ More results from www.flickr.com ]
Apples and Orange's - English (ESL) Weblog - UsingEnglish.com
The so-called grocer's apostrophe, where it is used incorrectly in plurals, is one of the most common mistakes made by native speakers in English.
www.usingenglish.com/weblog/archives/000067.html - 24k - Cached - Similar pages
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awilliams
United Kingdom
Local time: 16:41
Italian to English
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| not the grocer's apostrophe | Dec 7, 2006 |
Lia Fail wrote: Where to stick grocer's apostrophe | The Guardian | Guardian Unlimited We have finally got the hang of the grocer's apostrophe. ... It was dubbed "the grocer's apostrophe" because of its unnecessary use in plural words on shop ... www.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,3604,1256380,00.html - 40k - Cached - Similar pages Flickr: Grocer's Apostrophe About Grocer's Apostrophe. Why can`t people tell the difference between plurals and ... Feed – Subscribe to Grocer's Apostrophe discussion threads ... www.flickr.com/groups/77173807@N00/ - 23k - Cached - Similar pages Flickr: The Grocer's Apostrophe Pool the Grocer's Apostrophe group icon · Grocer's Apostrophe ... Feed – Subscribe to photos from the Grocer's Apostrophe pool. Add to My Yahoo! ... www.flickr.com/groups/77173807@N00/pool/ - 29k - Cached - Similar pages [ More results from www.flickr.com ] Apples and Orange's - English (ESL) Weblog - UsingEnglish.com The so-called grocer's apostrophe, where it is used incorrectly in plurals, is one of the most common mistakes made by native speakers in English. www.usingenglish.com/weblog/archives/000067.html - 24k - Cached - Similar pages
I don't think this is a case of the grocer's apostrophe at all. The grocer's apostrophe is incorrect - "apple's, orange's and melon's" when referring to piles of fruit, etc. - whereas "master's [degree] in translation" is absolutely fine (the degree of a master). Some people interpret "masters" as adjectival and drop the apostrophe, that's all.
There's a letter about this here which you may be interested in, Heinrich.
[Edited at 2006-12-07 14:52]
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Williamson
United Kingdom
Local time: 16:41
Flemish to English
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| Norman and Saxon genetive | Dec 7, 2006 |
Isn't this called the Saxon and the Norman genitive: At times pretty confusing, also for native speakers.
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Terry Gilman
Germany
Local time: 17:41
Member (2003)
German to English
+ ...
| grocer's thank's | Dec 7, 2006 |
I agree that "master's degree" is *not* an example of the grocer's apostrophe, but I am very grateful for all the Guardian links, as I collect apostrophes.
In our style guide, we include master's and bachelor's, as both are common usage, but suggest that people use the simpler forms to avoid mistakes (the style guide and the resulting texts are used by mixed groups of ENS and non-ENS). In developing the guide, we found "The Elements of *International* English Style" very useful. ... See more I agree that "master's degree" is *not* an example of the grocer's apostrophe, but I am very grateful for all the Guardian links, as I collect apostrophes.
In our style guide, we include master's and bachelor's, as both are common usage, but suggest that people use the simpler forms to avoid mistakes (the style guide and the resulting texts are used by mixed groups of ENS and non-ENS). In developing the guide, we found "The Elements of *International* English Style" very useful.
The book also suggests, without saying so, why ppt slides are so popular - the "writing" (such as it is) is chunked and bullet-pointed and, in the better cases, surrounded by a fair amount of white space. If you're lucky, the Speaker's Notes provide some context. (I don't really want to defend ppt presentations; the "Elements" book just helped me to understand why they are so pervasive.) ▲ Collapse
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Lia Fail (X)
Spain
Local time: 17:41
Spanish to English
+ ...
| I' think you are confusing grocers and fruit!!!! | Dec 28, 2006 |
Amy Williams wrote: Lia Fail wrote: Where to stick grocer's apostrophe | The Guardian | Guardian Unlimited We have finally got the hang of the grocer's apostrophe. ... It was dubbed "the grocer's apostrophe" because of its unnecessary use in plural words on shop ... www.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,3604,1256380,00.html - 40k - Cached - Similar pages Flickr: Grocer's Apostrophe About Grocer's Apostrophe. Why can`t people tell the difference between plurals and ... Feed – Subscribe to Grocer's Apostrophe discussion threads ... www.flickr.com/groups/77173807@N00/ - 23k - Cached - Similar pages Flickr: The Grocer's Apostrophe Pool the Grocer's Apostrophe group icon · Grocer's Apostrophe ... Feed – Subscribe to photos from the Grocer's Apostrophe pool. Add to My Yahoo! ... www.flickr.com/groups/77173807@N00/pool/ - 29k - Cached - Similar pages [ More results from www.flickr.com ] Apples and Orange's - English (ESL) Weblog - UsingEnglish.com The so-called grocer's apostrophe, where it is used incorrectly in plurals, is one of the most common mistakes made by native speakers in English. www.usingenglish.com/weblog/archives/000067.html - 24k - Cached - Similar pages I don't think this is a case of the grocer's apostrophe at all. The grocer's apostrophe is incorrect - "apple's, orange's and melon's" when referring to piles of fruit, etc. - whereas "master's [degree] in translation" is absolutely fine (the degree of a master). Some people interpret "masters" as adjectival and drop the apostrophe, that's all. There's a letter about this here which you may be interested in, Heinrich. [Edited at 2006-12-07 14:52]
When you refer to 'apple's, orange's', you are implying a possesive, but that's impossible for an object. We never say the 'table's leg', for example, becuase EN doesn't recognise that objects can posses. Hence we say 'leg of the table'.
I think you are confusing the notion of "grocer's apostrophe" with fruit. The so-called "grocer's apostrophe" is an all-embracing descriptive term to describe the fact that in English, shops have traditionally been called, for example, the "hairdresser's", or the "fishmonger's", where we drop the shop as in "hairdresser's shop" or "fishmonger's shop", i.e. the "shop OF" the hairdresser or fishmonger, i.e. of PERSONS. Unlike "hardware shop", where it's not the shop BELONGING to the hardware, it's a shop of hardware.
When we say "master's", it's a reference to the "degree of a master", but as per the 'grocer's apostrophe', we drop the degree.
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Lia Fail wrote:
When you refer to 'apple's, orange's', you are implying a possesive, but that's impossible for an object. We never say the 'table's leg', for example, becuase EN doesn't recognise that objects can posses. Hence we say 'leg of the table'.
Grammatically, it is quite possible for objects to be possessive. "The table's leg" is standard usage. "The leg of the table" is wordy and can be awkward.
Compare:
"My car's engine sounds funny."
"The engine of my car sounds funny."
If you prefer the second form, I suspect you are not a native speaker of English.
I think you are confusing the notion of "grocer's apostrophe" with fruit. The so-called "grocer's apostrophe" is an all-embracing descriptive term to describe the fact that in English, shops have traditionally been called, for example, the "hairdresser's", or the "fishmonger's", where we drop the shop as in "hairdresser's shop" or "fishmonger's shop", i.e. the "shop OF" the hairdresser or fishmonger, i.e. of PERSONS. Unlike "hardware shop", where it's not the shop BELONGING to the hardware, it's a shop of hardware.
Your version may be a different use of the term "grocer's apostrophe," and it makes sense to me, but the standard use of the term (based on Amy's sources and this article) is an error in plural formation.
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| Just beaming down from Mars (where English isn't standard) .. | Jan 12, 2007 |
Lia Fail commented:
... you are implying a possesive, but that's impossible for an object. We never say the 'table's leg', for example, becuase EN doesn't recognise that objects can posses. Hence we say 'leg of the table'.
Well, there go nigh on 30 years of English education ... all useless, apparently.
Here I was, sitting at my desk, as I do every morning, thinking that what I saw was the desk’s surface, and the monitor’s USB port, and the chair’s castors, and the tree’s shadow outside my window.
But hey, at least now I can stop worrying about the government’s policy. Or the opposition’s policy.
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Angela Dickson (X)
United Kingdom
Local time: 16:41
French to English
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I think you are confusing the notion of "grocer's apostrophe" with fruit. The so-called "grocer's apostrophe" is an all-embracing descriptive term to describe the fact that in English, shops have traditionally been called, for example, the "hairdresser's", or the "fishmonger's", where we drop the shop as in "hairdresser's shop" or "fishmonger's shop", i.e. the "shop OF" the hairdresser or fishmonger, i.e. of PERSONS. Unlike "hardware shop", where it's not the shop BELONGING to the hardware, it's a shop of hardware.
Lia, your first link from the Guardian explains what the 'grocer's apostrophe' is - its 'unnecessary use in plural words on shop signs or placards (Price's Slashed)'.
So I think you're mistaken about what the term means. 'Master's Degree' is not an example of the grocer's apostrophe, and neither are shop names.
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