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I hate [bad legalese]!
Thread poster: Levan Namoradze

Levan Namoradze  Identity Verified
Georgia
Local time: 04:23
Member (2005)
English to Georgian
+ ...
Jun 7, 2007

Quotation

Any delay in paying the sums owed on the non-freed amount of the shares shall automatically and without the need to complete any further formalities, incur the payment of interest calculated at the current legal rate, without affecting any action that the company may pursue against the offending shareholder or third parties against the company managers under measures defined by law.

End of Quotation


!!! Even I do not write that way !!! And now I hate!!!

[Subject edited by staff or moderator 2007-06-07 13:47]

[Subject edited by staff or moderator 2007-06-07 13:47]

[Subject edited by staff or moderator 2007-06-07 19:55]

[Subject edited by staff or moderator 2007-06-07 20:04]


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Yolande Haneder  Identity Verified
Local time: 01:23
German to French
+ ...
I had that way once Jun 7, 2007

Every paragraph of a contract was made of 1 (!!) sentence, even if the sentence went on on more than 10 lines, which as many "then, if, and, which, or" as possible.

I suffer with you.


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Levan Namoradze  Identity Verified
Georgia
Local time: 04:23
Member (2005)
English to Georgian
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
I see Jun 7, 2007

Dear Yolande,

I see. However, when dealing with legal texts, the most of paragraphs use forming sentences. No! I meant application of the legal terms and the style!

And here is another brilliant:

Quotation

... according to the conditions and methods stipulated by the French statutory regulations currently applicable.

End of Quotation


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Yolande Haneder  Identity Verified
Local time: 01:23
German to French
+ ...
This is then not the most dificult to me Jun 7, 2007

Levan Namoradze wrote:

Dear Levan

Quotation

... according to the conditions and methods stipulated by the French statutory regulations currently applicable.

End of Quotation


The difficult part to me would be that in German it would be something like:

"according to the conditions and methods" + "stipulated by the currently applicable" + "French statutory regulation".

The wording is something you find again and again. The problem however that in German the structure is much different, you have to organize all parts again, without speaking of the fact of avoiding having 4,5 verbs one after the other at the end.


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Jack Doughty  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 00:23
Member (2000)
Russian to English
+ ...
Patent claims Jun 7, 2007

Each claim has to consist of one sentence covering one point completely, however long the sentence turns out to be. This is a problem in any language, but particularly in German, for the reasons stated by Yolande.

Example:
Hobkolbenkraftmaschine mit einem in einem Zylinder verschieblich angeordneten Kolben, der mit einer Pleuelstange gelenkig gekoppelt ist, deren Bewegung auf einen Hubzapfen einer Kurbelwelle übertragbar ist, wobei zwischen der Pleuelstange und dem Hubzapfen ein Übertragungsglied vorgesehen ist, dessen Bewegung über ein Nebenpleuel zur Veränderung eines Verdichtungsverhältnisses der Hubkolbenbrennkraftmaschine manipulierbar ist, wobei das Übertragungsglied als Querhebel ausgebildet ist, der über ein Gelenk an einem Gelenkpunkt mit der Hubzapfen gekoppelt ist, wobei dieses Gelenk in einem Bereich zwischen einem ersten Lagerpunkt des Querhebels zur Pleuelstange und einem zweiten Lagerpunkt des Querhebels zum Nebenpleuel liegt, und wobei das Gelenk zwischen Querhebel und Hubzapfen mit Abstand zur Verbindungslinie zwischen den beiden Lagerpunkten des Querhebels zum Nebenpleuel und der Pleuelstange angeordnet ist, dadurch gekennzeichnet, dass bei einer Überlagung des Querhebels in einer Hauptansicht mit einem ebenen orthogonalen Achsensystem mit dem Nullpunkt des Achsensystems im Gelenkpunkt einer ersten Achse durch den zweiten Lagerpunkt und einer dazu senkrechten zweiten Achse, wobei durch die beiden Achsen eine Zeichenebene in vier Quadranten I bis IV in mathematischer üblicher Weise aufgeteilt ist und der erste Lagerpunkt in zweiten Quadranten II angeordnet ist, ein Schwerpunkt des Querhebels in einem der Quadranten II, III oder IV verschoben ist.


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Sybille  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 01:23
Member (2003)
English to German
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Great sentence, Jack, Jun 7, 2007

really !!!

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Levan Namoradze  Identity Verified
Georgia
Local time: 04:23
Member (2005)
English to Georgian
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TOPIC STARTER
:-) Jun 7, 2007

So, that was the sentence!

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Jenny Forbes  Identity Verified
Local time: 00:23
Member (2006)
French to English
+ ...
Not even Bernard Levin Jun 7, 2007

Jack Doughty wrote:

Each claim has to consist of one sentence covering one point completely, however long the sentence turns out to be. This is a problem in any language, but particularly in German, for the reasons stated by Yolande.

Example:
Hobkolbenkraftmaschine mit einem in einem Zylinder verschieblich angeordneten Kolben, der mit einer Pleuelstange gelenkig gekoppelt ist, deren Bewegung auf einen Hubzapfen einer Kurbelwelle übertragbar ist, wobei zwischen der Pleuelstange und dem Hubzapfen ein Übertragungsglied vorgesehen ist, dessen Bewegung über ein Nebenpleuel zur Veränderung eines Verdichtungsverhältnisses der Hubkolbenbrennkraftmaschine manipulierbar ist, wobei das Übertragungsglied als Querhebel ausgebildet ist, der über ein Gelenk an einem Gelenkpunkt mit der Hubzapfen gekoppelt ist, wobei dieses Gelenk in einem Bereich zwischen einem ersten Lagerpunkt des Querhebels zur Pleuelstange und einem zweiten Lagerpunkt des Querhebels zum Nebenpleuel liegt, und wobei das Gelenk zwischen Querhebel und Hubzapfen mit Abstand zur Verbindungslinie zwischen den beiden Lagerpunkten des Querhebels zum Nebenpleuel und der Pleuelstange angeordnet ist, dadurch gekennzeichnet, dass bei einer Überlagung des Querhebels in einer Hauptansicht mit einem ebenen orthogonalen Achsensystem mit dem Nullpunkt des Achsensystems im Gelenkpunkt einer ersten Achse durch den zweiten Lagerpunkt und einer dazu senkrechten zweiten Achse, wobei durch die beiden Achsen eine Zeichenebene in vier Quadranten I bis IV in mathematischer üblicher Weise aufgeteilt ist und der erste Lagerpunkt in zweiten Quadranten II angeordnet ist, ein Schwerpunkt des Querhebels in einem der Quadranten II, III oder IV verschoben ist.


Good God Jack! Not even Bernard Levin could have beaten that! No wonder I gave up learning German ...
Regards,
Jenny.


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Ken Cox  Identity Verified
Local time: 01:23
German to English
+ ...
legal and contractual texts... Jun 7, 2007

are often worded this way, like it or not. In some cases, you can be excused for thinking that the objective is to confuse the uninitiated, but in many cases the constructions are necessary (or at least helpful) to precisely express nuances of meaning, particularly with reference to general practice and precedents (i.e. wording commonly or historically used in similar documents).

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Levan Namoradze  Identity Verified
Georgia
Local time: 04:23
Member (2005)
English to Georgian
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
IMHO Jun 7, 2007

Dear Ken,

Let me disagree. IMHO, insurance texts (which are truly different) are deliberately confusing and even misleading.


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Melzie
Local time: 01:23
French to English
+ ...
doesn't stop me hating them Jun 7, 2007

their like and the frustration of getting those nuances in translation!

Ken Cox wrote:

are often worded this way, like it or not. In some cases, you can be excused for thinking that the objective is to confuse the uninitiated, but in many cases the constructions are necessary (or at least helpful) to precisely express nuances of meaning, particularly with reference to general practice and precedents (i.e. wording commonly or historically used in similar documents).


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Lawyer-Linguist  Identity Verified
Portugal
Local time: 00:23
Dutch to English
+ ...
Quite ... Jun 7, 2007

Ken Cox wrote:

are often worded this way, like it or not. In some cases, you can be excused for thinking that the objective is to confuse the uninitiated, but in many cases the constructions are necessary (or at least helpful) to precisely express nuances of meaning, particularly with reference to general practice and precedents (i.e. wording commonly or historically used in similar documents).


But, of course, you should also know by now that anyone can jump on the legal bandwagon



[Edited at 2007-06-07 11:59]


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Nesrin  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 00:23
English to Arabic
+ ...
I love legalese! Jun 7, 2007

I used to hate it, but I've grown to love it (if it's well written, that is). I have nothing but admiration for those who know how to masterfully write a well-constructed complicated sentence which covers all aspects of an issue and does not allow for ambiguities or loopholes. As we say in Arabic, these are "watertight" constructions.

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xxxUndoer of Ba  Identity Verified
Local time: 23:23
English to German
I hate legalese, too ... Jun 7, 2007

Luckily I have never had to translate anything beyond the usual ToS etc., but just reading such text makes me think there must be something wrong with the brains of those people producing such wording.
Actually, I think in English longer sentences tend to get less rather than more precise, due to lack of gender in relative pronouns etc.

But I guess that is the very point, they want to confuse readers not trained in that talk, i.e. almost everybody.

Maybe legalese is so long-winded because of the western tendency to sue everybody whenever possible.

Who reads the small print when downloading software? I don't


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