i am sorry (Mod: thread poster originally looked for advice on cross-cultural friendship/marriage) Thread poster: ga5 (X)
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ga5 (X)
English to Ukrainian
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i am sorry... yes i am wrong... i am just new at the forum so i dont know some things...
i take my words back..
[Edited at 2003-07-09 08:21]
| | | | reliable 
United States
Local time: 15:34
French to English
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| | A very loaded question | Jul 8, 2003 |
It is really a sign of the times that such questions are being aired in the open and I for one am happy about it. In another time and country (the unlamented thirties in Germany), you would have had a one way ticket to a concenztration camp for even raising such a question.
Now to your question. Please make sure that your love is just not an infatuation. Gypsies have rightly a great pride in their culture and do not see what they feel as slights with a kind eye. They are by inclination nom... See more It is really a sign of the times that such questions are being aired in the open and I for one am happy about it. In another time and country (the unlamented thirties in Germany), you would have had a one way ticket to a concenztration camp for even raising such a question.
Now to your question. Please make sure that your love is just not an infatuation. Gypsies have rightly a great pride in their culture and do not see what they feel as slights with a kind eye. They are by inclination nomadic and do not feel at ease in a single place, read monotonous life. Are you equal to that way of thinking? Gypsies speak a language, which is a mixture of diverse languages including Hindustani, (a sort of Hindi) spoken in India. There is a theory that they originated from India and settled mostly around Rumania. In India too they are in many pockets. In my state of Tamil Nadu, they are called "Koravas", and according to the Hindu mythology, a Korava girl named Valli married Muruga, the Son of Shiva, one of the Hindu Trinity.
I am giving you all this background with a genuine concern. I request you not to proceed further, if you are not serious. They have already suffered enough under Hitler. There are many google hits for gypsies, e.g.
Association of Gypsies/Romani International
... Amen. Updated: 29-11-2002. Association of Gypsies/Romani International,
Inc. ©DMCA ... Association of Gypsies/Romani International, Inc. ...
Description: "A not-for-profit association with the intention of giving glory to God, of preserving, maintaining,...
Category: Society > Ethnicity > Romani > Religion
www.christusrex.org/www2/gypsies.net/ - 17k - Cached - Similar pages.
As for your 2 questions I will give a single answer. It depends on you. Just check one thing. Whether the eating habits of the girl are found acceptable to you. Many marriages fail on this aspect alone. Look before you take the plunge. Good luck.
bohdan23 wrote:
please dear ladies and gentlemen
i am 23, fall in love with a girl... she is so nice person to talk to so i decided to learn gypsy ( she is a gypsy girl)....
i would like to learn the gypsy language ( the language of these nice girl... i searched long hours to find some manual for jypsy in the internet.... please help me or send a scanned book to my email......
and 2 question pleas... what do you think is it good to marry a person if you are of different race, origin culture?????////
i mean what do you think about the cultural differences and diff mentality????? or is it better to get married a person of the same culture as you are ( or race, ethnos)) ▲ Collapse
| | | | Edward Vreeburg
Netherlands
Local time: 21:34
Member (2008)
English to Dutch
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| dear "undecided" | Jul 8, 2003 |
It really doesnot matter what race, colour, religion or sex the other person is, if you really love him or her it's best to give it all you got and make the differences between you not a point of discussion but a learning experience.
Anyway the chances of finding a person who is just like you, thinks like you and has the same values are extremely slim anyway.
However I do suggest you try to find some books on multi-cultural relationships so you can understand her background, ... See more It really doesnot matter what race, colour, religion or sex the other person is, if you really love him or her it's best to give it all you got and make the differences between you not a point of discussion but a learning experience.
Anyway the chances of finding a person who is just like you, thinks like you and has the same values are extremely slim anyway.
However I do suggest you try to find some books on multi-cultural relationships so you can understand her background, and even more important: your own background - so you do not spring all kinds of strange 'cultural things' on your wife-to-be" without being able to explain...(prefably beforehand)...
(and I mean the simple stuff like, will you get a hot meal when you visit a friend at 20:00 for his birthday)
I'm not sure what gypsy language you speak of, I assume there are many diffent ones in the world, but I believe they call themselves "Roma" where I live, so you may want to search for that... ▲ Collapse
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| Why don't you pay her for teaching you? | Jul 8, 2003 |
This way you could learn the language, live with her and her family and see whether you will like to stay with them..
| | | | DGK T-I
United Kingdom
Local time: 20:34
Georgian to English
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| The search for Rom / Romani / Romany/"Gypsy" language resources appropriate to the Ukraine | Jul 8, 2003 |
The language spoken by the "Rom", "Roma", "Romany", "Romane" or "Romani" (other names for the language or people, too) is divided into (perhaps seven)different groups or dialects, which can be very different from one another, because each group has been affected differently by the other languages that surrounded them, as history passed. They all have some basic things in common, though, sometimes much more (less so, for "fringe" Rom languages like in England or Spain, but that won't affect you i... See more The language spoken by the "Rom", "Roma", "Romany", "Romane" or "Romani" (other names for the language or people, too) is divided into (perhaps seven)different groups or dialects, which can be very different from one another, because each group has been affected differently by the other languages that surrounded them, as history passed. They all have some basic things in common, though, sometimes much more (less so, for "fringe" Rom languages like in England or Spain, but that won't affect you in the Ukraine).
Since the language groups may be very different, it seems a good start (looking for dictionaries, etc) to find out which group might be the one in your case.
http://www.abavagada.net/babel/babel4/romani.htm
gives a good clear paragraph which gives the (English) names of the 4 (out of the total 7 described) groups of Rom language which Rom in the Ukraine are most likely to speak - "Vlach"(may be different forms of name, eg:'Vlax'), "Balkan Romani", "Carpathian Romani" or "Baltic Romani" - the countries they are linked to are given (if a Rom resource mentions or comes from one of those countries or language groups, it's more likely to be helpful).
http://www-gewi.kfunigraz.ac.at/romani/
is a big authoritative academic site giving a lot of interesting information about the structure & history of the language, and how the language divided into very different groups as the people migrated, borrowing words from the languages which surrounded them in different places.
It includes four dictionaries, of which one is 'Lovara' ('lovara'/'Lovari' as Csaba Ban's posting below mentions as being spoken in Hungary and Kalderash are separate dialects belonging to the 'Vlax' group) & see http://www-gewi.kfunigraz.ac.at/romlex/varieties.html Perhaps there might be something there that would lead you to what you need.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/Archive/Article/0,4273,4192897,00.html
http://www-gewi.kfunigraz.ac.at/romlex/
give some details of the project (based at the Universities of Manchester & Graz) which produced the above site.
http://ling.man.ac.uk/Research/RMS/proj.html
gives another description of where the Rom people & language came from, and how it metamorphosed into different groups.
I must say, Bodhan - I like very much the way you are interested in the interesting languages around you - both Armenian & Romani.
I know something of learning about differences and similarities between traditions, being part of a Georgian-English partnership, but I think absolutely all the advice given above by other members is all sensible so I have nothing to add
Best wishes
Giuli
PS. 'Gypsy' comes from English 'Egyptian' (with similar words in other languages), a name which came from the old (but imaginary) story that the Rom came from Egypt. It isn't (I am told) a name that Rom use to name themselves, and they don't all necessarily like it to be used for themselves in England (that may not matter in the Ukraine, since it's not an English speaking country!), although of course it is worth searching under that name too, because it is so widely understood.
'Rom' is difficult to search the net with, because of the large number of computer ROMs, etc, so other keywords may be better, in English, Russian, or Ukrainian, if the above information doesn't lead you to a solution in another way.
PPS. It might also be worth trying posting a brief enquiry for Rom/Romani/Romany/Roma/Gypsy/etc language resources to the Russian and/or Ukrainian language forums - asking if anyone knew of resources local to the Ukraine, etc.
You could just ask for information about resources.
The only alteration I would make to Narasimhan Raghavan's very wise comments is that while Romani have been nomadic for much of their history, and that remains the custom in many countries, in some other countries Romani are different from that and have a long tradition of living in static settlements, and I don't know which is the custom in the Ukraine (I do not say that either is good or bad, but just to know).
Other resources (not at all specific to the Ukraine, but perhaps of interest - I have not checked their contents in detail, and so cannot comment on views contained)
The Patrinweb Journal :
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/5121/patrin.htm
http://sca.lib.liv.ac.uk/collections/gypsy/links.htm
http://www.romani.org/
http://www.istanbul-yes-istanbul.co.uk/istanbul/Col23Oct02.html
Abstracts from the 6th International Conference on Romani Linguistics at Graz
http://www-gewi.kfunigraz.ac.at/ling/proj/romani/conf2002/abstracts.html giving a few names of dialects that might be spoken in particular areas, or just for interest.
A book intended for English readers who would like a general rather than highly academic book about interacting with Rom people of/from central & eastern Europe and their language, is 'We Are The Romany People' by Ian Hancock (a respected expert in the field)pub. University of Hertfordshire Press, UK, November 2002.
ISBN 1 902806 19 0. Paperback http://www.herts.ac.uk/UHPress/romanipeople.html , and they also do some other books on Romani studies. Kalderash is the name for one of one of the dialects within the Vlax language group, originating from Rumania, and one of the most widely spoken dialects, I am told, (), and they have plans to reprint their Kalderash grammar in the future, although it is currently out of print. University of Hertfordshire Press 'Interface Collection' http://www.herts.ac.uk/UHPress/interface.htmllists a range of books on Romani studies including: : 'From coppersmith to nurse: Alyosha, the son of a Gypsy chief' by Gunilla Lundgren and Alyosha Taikon (dual language Kalderash & English with notes to help non-Kalderash speakers understand the text - story of the life of Alyosha Taikon, the Swedish born son of a coppersmith, a member of the Kalderash clan of Romanies from Hungary)
PPPS
It seems from later information that the Vlax dialects of the Ukraine are to some extent similar to the Northern Vlax dialects Kalderash & Lovara (Hungary & Roumania), and those spoken in SE Ukraine are mutually intelligible with them, although different. There are additional dialects in the Ukraine related to the Northern Russian varieties, and others near the Slovakian border related to what is called the 'North Central group'(also called 'East Slovak Romani').
[Edited at 2003-07-09 18:12] ▲ Collapse
| | | | DGK T-I
United Kingdom
Local time: 20:34
Georgian to English
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| To B: Better to avoid generalizations about Romani though, to avoid giving offence. | Jul 8, 2003 |
bohdan23 wrote:
i think that.....
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Csaba Ban
Hungary
Local time: 21:34
Member (2002)
English to Hungarian
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You may want to watch the French film "Gadjo Dilo" about a young French guy visiting a Roma community somewhere in Romania. Of course, he falls in love with a girl there...
More popular films in this theme are Emir Kusturica's films.
Otherwise, a good advice who is a bit more experienced (at least with 10 extra years): OK, enjoy your romance with the girl, but it does not mean you have to marry her at this tender age.
About learning "Gypsy": yes, there are several quite distinc... See more You may want to watch the French film "Gadjo Dilo" about a young French guy visiting a Roma community somewhere in Romania. Of course, he falls in love with a girl there...
More popular films in this theme are Emir Kusturica's films.
Otherwise, a good advice who is a bit more experienced (at least with 10 extra years): OK, enjoy your romance with the girl, but it does not mean you have to marry her at this tender age.
About learning "Gypsy": yes, there are several quite distinct dialects. In Hungary alone three major Roma languages are spoken, namely Lovari, Vlach and Carpathian Roma. In addition, the majority of the Roma in Hungary (or at least in Budapest and larger cities) have been more or less assimilated and speak Hungarian with a large amount of Roma loan words. ▲ Collapse
| | | | | The problem is in your mind I think | Jul 8, 2003 |
You seem to already have some ideas and to want the others to say that you're right.
You've been given very good advice, try to read and listen what they tell you, as Giuli said
Better to avoid generalizations about Romani though, to avoid giving offence.
And please edit your posts in order to respect others' culture.
| | | | Ralf Lemster
Germany
Local time: 21:34
English to German
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| Locking the thread | Jul 8, 2003 |
i say i am sorry to be on the safe side
Bohdan,
May I suggest you read the Forum Rules of Etiquette before posting another thread, or responding to existing threads. The rules clearly state that "the ProZ.com discussion forums are a free, private service provided to ProZ.com users in order to discuss translation-related topics."
The fact that your thread was accepted was based on the recognition that you were faced with a genuine problem - the members of this site are tolerant and supportive enough to give you advice, even though the issue discussed has nothing to do with the purposes of ProZ.com.
Linguists bridge communication gaps between different people, and different cultures - flatly denouncing an entire ethnic group of people as "lazy" is completely unacceptable, on this site and beyond. Think about it!
I am locking this thread in view of your controversial posting. Your offending comments were hidden - please refrain from making any such postings on this site.
Ralf
[Edited at 2003-07-08 19:53]
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