| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4] > | Another dangerously wrong translation Thread poster: Abba Storgen (X)
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Erik Freitag 
Germany
Local time: 09:20
Member (2006)
Dutch to German
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| You're solving the wrong problem | Sep 27, 2009 |
Eleftherios Kritikakis wrote:
Now, let's say you are a project manager and you have a German text that has to be translated into English and Greek.
You assign it to two translators, who both happen to use Wikipedia for "cartel". Result? The Geman to English translator will write that it is "A formal agreement between firms" and the German to Greek will write that it is "A cooperation for the illegitimate manipulation of the market".
Same source document, but two very different results - which cause a material (significant) difference of opinion between the people of two countries (about OPEC or about the DeBeers Diamond Alliance).
Furthermore, the Greek text says in the last sentence that "The word "trust" is also used as a synonym of cartel".
See the problem?
I think you're solving the wrong problem here. The problem in your scenario isn't with Wikipedia, but with the translators you assigned. It's their job to recognize these differences in the perception of the terms and translate accordingly. And it's their job to check their sources.
| | | | Abba Storgen (X)
United States
Local time: 02:20
Greek to English
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TOPIC STARTER | You' re probably right... | Sep 27, 2009 |
"You're solving the wrong problem"
I think you' re right... what a combination though, isn't it?
| | | | Tatty
Local time: 09:20
Spanish to English
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| I don't see why that would happen | Sep 27, 2009 |
I translate whatever the original text says, naturally allowing myself some room for stylistic changes and rephrasing.
| | | | Giles Watson
Italy
Local time: 09:20
Italian to English
In memoriam | Greece and the Hellenosphere | Sep 28, 2009 |
Eleftherios Kritikakis wrote:
Hi Giles,
An illegitimate behavior in commerce (such as "αθέμιτος ανταγωνισμός") in punishable by law in Greece.
Hi again, Eleftherios.
The corresponding term in English is of course "unfair" competition".
Since "unfair" is a value judgement, the legality of any specific market situation has to be assessed on a case-by-case basis, in accordance with local legislation.
Furthermore, the Greek text says in the last sentence that "The word "trust" is also used as a synonym of cartel".
See the problem?
Are you worried that some people might assume τραστ has the secondary meaning of a drugs cartel
Remember that the Greek version of Wikipedia does not necessarily take Greece as its framework of reference. Ideally, it is targeted at the "Hellenosphere", the entire world community of Greek speakers, many of whom are not subject to, or even aware of, the laws of the Greek republic.
Best,
Giles
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Abba Storgen (X)
United States
Local time: 02:20
Greek to English
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TOPIC STARTER | The actual word counts | Sep 28, 2009 |
"The corresponding term in English is of course "unfair" competition".
The actual word used is αθέμιτος. This very word is also used by the Greek laws to describe punichable behavior ("αθέμιτος ανταγωνισμός").
Back-translation of the word is not relevant. You can't go to a judge in Greek and say "Judge, of course I was practicing αθέμιτη behavior but if you back-translate the word to another English synonym then I'm not guilty".
| | | | Marina Pjevalica
Bosnia and Herzegovina
Local time: 09:20
Member (2009)
English to Serbo-Croat
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| EU and cartels | Sep 28, 2009 |
I can agree with opinions that Wikipedia should not be exclusively taken as a reliable source, but as a basic for further research and I believe that most of the translators check the term found in Wikipedia ( as the fastest way to find basic definition) against other sources. In this particular case (cartel) see what the European Commission (I hope enough reliable source) thinks about cartels:
…Action against cartels is a specific type of antitrust enforcement. A cartel is a grou... See more I can agree with opinions that Wikipedia should not be exclusively taken as a reliable source, but as a basic for further research and I believe that most of the translators check the term found in Wikipedia ( as the fastest way to find basic definition) against other sources. In this particular case (cartel) see what the European Commission (I hope enough reliable source) thinks about cartels:
…Action against cartels is a specific type of antitrust enforcement. A cartel is a group of similar, independent companies which join together to fix prices, to limit production or to share markets or customers between them.
Instead of competing with each other, cartel members rely on each others' agreed course of action, which reduces their incentives to provide new or better products and services at competitive prices. As a consequence, their clients (consumers or other businesses) end up paying more for less quality.
This is why cartels are illegal under EU competition law and why the European Commission imposes heavy fines on companies involved in a cartel….
http://ec.europa.eu/competition/cartels/overview/index_en.html ▲ Collapse
| | | | B D Finch
France
Local time: 09:20
French to English
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| Reliance on Wikipedia (or any other source) is bad practice | Sep 28, 2009 |
efreitag wrote:
I think you're solving the wrong problem here. The problem in your scenario isn't with Wikipedia, but with the translators you assigned. It's their job to recognize these differences in the perception of the terms and translate accordingly. And it's their job to check their sources.
I couldn't agree more. Wikipedia is a wonderful reference source for translators, but it cannot be used as a substitute for knowledge of source and target languages, translation theory, judgement and corroboration by checking context and other sources. Sometimes I look a word up in a good dictionary but realise that the translation offered will not work in the particular context of my text. It is then up to me to seek first to fully understand the source text and work out how to render the idea in English in the right register and style. If translation was just a string of lookings-up, machines would have taken over yesterday!
BDF
| | | | Abba Storgen (X)
United States
Local time: 02:20
Greek to English
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TOPIC STARTER
As far as the Ministry of Cult (previous messages), just translate it normally as "Ministry of Culture". I see no problem there.
As far as "EU and Cartels", I do not think you read the previous messages. Does the EU impose fines on OPEC and the DeBeers Diamond Alliance? Of course not.
Not to mention the cases of cooperation between Public Companies etc.
The issue is not the local laws. The issue is whether to translate appropriately with the use of the actu... See more As far as the Ministry of Cult (previous messages), just translate it normally as "Ministry of Culture". I see no problem there.
As far as "EU and Cartels", I do not think you read the previous messages. Does the EU impose fines on OPEC and the DeBeers Diamond Alliance? Of course not.
Not to mention the cases of cooperation between Public Companies etc.
The issue is not the local laws. The issue is whether to translate appropriately with the use of the actual definitions, or to add a "local spin" to a translation.
EXAMPLE: In Greece, you cannot legally lend money with interest to someone else if you' re not a Bank or an approved institution. In America, it's perfectly legal in almost all cases. Right now, I can strike a contract on a piece of paper with my neighbor and charge him interest on a loan. Therefore, when you have the text "the party A gave a loan to the party B", you must translate it as it is, and NOT as "the party A gave an illegal loan to party B", since the word "illegal" is your own... you had no right to insert it, ok?
In the case of "cartels", the Greek writer in Wikipedia "took the liberty" to characterize all cartels as illegal by definition. They are NOT illegal by definition. They may be illegal in many countries by law, but not by definition.
For example: Marijuana is illegal by Law (in most countries), but it is not illegal by definition (because it's legal in some other countries).
Therefore, the proper entry in Wikipedia would be "a substance which is illegal in many countries", and not "an illegal substance".
Encyclopedias should not make general assumptions about International issues on the basis of only local provisions.
Finally, my ultimate point was to illustrate that no translator should rely exclusively on one (1) source only, especially if this source is produced and altered by random users. It was not my intention to create a forum of various arguments that are around the point but not exactly to the point.
My God, you people love to argue
[Edited at 2009-09-28 13:11 GMT] ▲ Collapse
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Tatty
Local time: 09:20
Spanish to English
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| You've moved the goal posts | Sep 28, 2009 |
The original translation of the Greek word in question was "unethically", which contributors to the forum seemed to accept without any qualms. But then you changed it to illegal. When we say that something is illegal there is always an implicit reference to a legal system, be it local, national or European. But it is very difficult for something to be internationally illegal, as international law only covers certain topics. Eg. the EU has no jurisdiction in South Africa (De Beers) or South Ameri... See more The original translation of the Greek word in question was "unethically", which contributors to the forum seemed to accept without any qualms. But then you changed it to illegal. When we say that something is illegal there is always an implicit reference to a legal system, be it local, national or European. But it is very difficult for something to be internationally illegal, as international law only covers certain topics. Eg. the EU has no jurisdiction in South Africa (De Beers) or South America.
But getting back to the point, how can we discuss your point if we don't understand Greek, you could only really expect us to talk around the point. Only one other contributor had a grip on Greek.
The word illicit is generally reserved for drugs.
As to cult, Ministry of Worship is a strange old one as well, so I understand what prompted your offering of Ministry of Culture. The truth is that it seemed to me that foreign affairs and cult seemed to be more closely related than foreign affairs and worship, which does seem to be have been just tacked onto the end. I understood cult in this context as refering to systems of beliefs and practices defended by indigenous groups, the mission of this ministry being to defend Bolivia's interests abroad from a pluralistic point of view. The fact that Bolivia isn't the only country in the Americas to have a ministry with this name would seem lend weight to the argument of a unifying criterion (other countries in the Americas have indigenous groups). However, if people from that area of the world immediately associate culto in this context with worship, then so be it. Ministry of Foreign Affairs and Worship gets more hits on Google than Cult but Wikipedia has translated it as Cult - there you go, that'll be the link with this thread...
I'm going to go with your Ministry of Foreign Affairs and Culture. Thanks.
[Editado a las 2009-09-28 17:09 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Both meanings are correct | Sep 28, 2009 |
Both meanings of cartel discussed here are correct. The problem, in my opinion, is not the translation, local cultures, etc., but rather people not looking up a word in the dictionary before writing about it.
Both the English and the Greek Wikipedia should use disambiguation, that is, have two articles for the term cartel, one for each meaning. Wikipedia already does this with many other words. Maybe you can introduce a new page in the Greek Wikipedia, Eleftherios?
| | | | Ioana Daia
Romania
Local time: 10:20
Spanish to Romanian
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| Cult, Culture and jargon vs language | Sep 28, 2009 |
Tatty wrote:
I'm going to go with your Ministry of Foreign Affairs and Culture. Thanks.
Just make sure there isn't a different Ministry of Culture in that government... In Romania we also have this "Ministerul Culturii si al Cultelor", officially translated as Ministry of Culture and Religious Affairs.
With efreitag on the initial subject of the topic...
Anyway, one thing is unclear to me. What is the meaning assigned by average Greeks to the word cartel in their language ? Of course, my question applies only if the word is widely spread in mass media, for instance.
Somehow I feel you would like everybody to respect the english definition of the word, without allowing the users to change it in time.
I agree that the legal terminology is supposed to work with rather precise meanings, but I'm sure nobody thinks about Wikipedia as a primary source of information for that kind of terminology. So that definition would rather reflect the actual use of the word in greek language, without entering in legal connotations, which are not necessarily identical to those assigned by the common language, so to speak.
[Edited at 2009-09-28 17:44 GMT]
| | | | Abba Storgen (X)
United States
Local time: 02:20
Greek to English
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TOPIC STARTER | "You've moved the goal posts" | Sep 28, 2009 |
"You've moved the goal posts "
No, I did NOT. The SPECIFIC and EXACT word used in the Greek Laws is αθέμιτο, the exact same word used in that Wikipedia article.
The SPECIFIC word "αθέμιτο" is considered an illegal action in commerce under Greek Laws.
I do not have time for games and impressions at my age.
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B D Finch
France
Local time: 09:20
French to English
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| A name for the Ministry | Sep 29, 2009 |
Tatty wrote:
As to cult, Ministry of Worship is a strange old one as well, so I understand what prompted your offering of Ministry of Culture. The truth is that it seemed to me that foreign affairs and cult seemed to be more closely related than foreign affairs and worship, which does seem to be have been just tacked onto the end. I understood cult in this context as refering to systems of beliefs and practices defended by indigenous groups, the mission of this ministry being to defend Bolivia's interests abroad from a pluralistic point of view. The fact that Bolivia isn't the only country in the Americas to have a ministry with this name would seem lend weight to the argument of a unifying criterion (other countries in the Americas have indigenous groups). However, if people from that area of the world immediately associate culto in this context with worship, then so be it. Ministry of Foreign Affairs and Worship gets more hits on Google than Cult but Wikipedia has translated it as Cult - there you go, that'll be the link with this thread...
I'm going to go with your Ministry of Foreign Affairs and Culture. Thanks.
[Editado a las 2009-09-28 17:09 GMT]
The Ministry in question seems to already be officially known as the "Ministry for Foreign and Religious Affairs". Hope this helps.
"The President of the Military Government of Bolivia has designated His Excellency. Colonel Joaquin Zenteno Anaya, Minister for Foreign and Religious Affairs ..."
untreaty.un.org/unts/120001_144071/11/7/00009036.pdf -
"(11) Exchange of Notes Between the Foreign Ministry of the People's Republic ... Rafael Castillo of the Bolivian Ministry of Foreign and Religious Affairs, ..."
www.mfa.gov.cn/eng/wjb/zzjg/ldmzs/gjlb/.../t17342.htm -
"Foreign Ministry Secretary of State to participate in EU-Rio Group Meeting [12 Apr 2007] ... The Costa Rican Vice-Minister of Foreign and Religious Affairs, ..."
www.mfa.gov.lv/en/security/news/4457/?pg=9196 -
| | | | | Back to basics | Sep 29, 2009 |
Why all the talk? Simply check your standard dictionaries.
| | | | Tatty
Local time: 09:20
Spanish to English
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| The elusive ministry | Sep 29, 2009 |
I did not intend my quest to find a name for the ministry to hijack this thread, it has come to a natural end anyway.
Your choice is an option. I think Ministry of Foreign Affairs and Religion is good too, this is Wikipedia's most recent translation for this Bolivian ministry. But if you put Ministry of Foreign Affairs and Culture into Google, the links proposed redirect you to the page of the Bolivian ministry in question. So somehow previously it has already been translated as cul... See more I did not intend my quest to find a name for the ministry to hijack this thread, it has come to a natural end anyway.
Your choice is an option. I think Ministry of Foreign Affairs and Religion is good too, this is Wikipedia's most recent translation for this Bolivian ministry. But if you put Ministry of Foreign Affairs and Culture into Google, the links proposed redirect you to the page of the Bolivian ministry in question. So somehow previously it has already been translated as culture. Thanks for your input. ▲ Collapse
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