Cleanup - what is it for?
Thread poster: Gerry Vickers
Gerry Vickers  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 19:39
Member (2007)
Czech to English
+ ...
Nov 1, 2012

I have used WF for about 7 years at a basic level - it does what I need it to do and it has served me well. Cleanup is a function that somebody pointed out to me recently, however, I can't work out what its purpose is.
What I want to be able to do is to be able to edit a file in Word when it has been translated, which is naturally much easier than in a table as you can see the formatting, and it is generally a lot easier on the eye, then somehow re-import it so that I don't have to manually go through each section one by one finding the places where I made the changes.

I've looked through guides such as this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PJR-MHNoPlc but it isn't much help - the bilingual review function isn't a lot of use as you can't see the formatting, plus it is quite a long-winded procedure - besides, I can make any initial changes straight into the TXML editor.

Maybe this is a basic function of WF, or maybe I am just asking too much, but if somebody could shed some light on it I would be most grateful.


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Dominique Pivard  Identity Verified
Local time: 21:39
Finnish to French
Classic or Pro? Nov 1, 2012

Your post is confusing: you said you have been using Wordfast for 7 years, so you must mean Classic (since Pro didn't exist 7 years ago). On the other hand, the video you mentioned is about Pro, and so is the Bilingual review feature. Both Classic and Pro have a feature called cleanup, but they don't serve exactly the same purpose. So which flavour of Wordfast does your question about cleanup refer to: Classic or Pro?

If you want to edit a bilingual document in its original context and with all its formatting in a WYSIWYG way, then Wordfast Pro is not for you. You should continue using Classic, as it's exactly what it does.

Cleanup in Pro is mostly meant to send translation units in a TXML to a TM (or several TM's). This can be useful if said TXML has been translated by someone else on another computer. It corresponds to Classic's cleanup if you answer "yes" do the question "do you want to update the TM?". Pro's cleanup can update multiple TM's at a time, while Classic's cleanup can only update one TM at a time. Pro's cleanup doesn't delete source segments from the bilingual file (TXML), while Classic's cleanup does. Pro's cleanup doesn't create a translated version of your original document (you would use the "Save Translated File" function for that), while Classic's cleanup does.

Cleanup in Pro has nothing to do with editing a document in Word. It is meant to be used inside its dedicated environment, which is not Word. If you want to do things in Word and do not like the bilingual review feature of Pro, you should continue using Classic (as I already said),


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neilmac  Identity Verified
Spain
Local time: 20:39
Spanish to English
+ ...
Please don't change Nov 1, 2012

Dominique Pivard wrote:

Both Classic and Pro have a feature called cleanup, but they don't serve exactly the same purpose. ...


Now I understand why I like WF Classic so much. The simplicity (WYSIWYG). Please don't change or "improve" it on my account!


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Gerry Vickers  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 19:39
Member (2007)
Czech to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Thank you Nov 1, 2012

You’re confused – not as much as I am

By 'at a basic level', I mean that my knowledge of what it can do is basic - but I don't need to tell you that.

Whatever I have been using has been under the Wordfast umbrella – I’m not sure what the difference between Classic and Pro is, but I have Pro and it is what I am used to. Even though your description of Classic sounds like what I might be looking for, I might have to muddle along … I don’t want to spend more getting a different version and then have to learn it all over again!

I was under the impression that Wordfast was the same whichever version, just in a slightly different format, and that Pro would have more functionality – that’s why I purchased it, and I actually quite like the interface. I may be wrong, but the functionality in Pro appears to be highly cumbersome – I followed your procedure for the bilingual review, but I’m afraid I would lose the will to live after one or two files. Many of my projects involve several relatively small files, each of which ideally need a bilingual (I think they are called ’unclean’?) file, but rather than spend five minutes messing around with each one it would be great if there was a button such as the one that generates a txml preview word file that will do it for you.

But again, I’m probably expecting too much of it.

Oh well – thanks for taking the time to reply anyway.

[Edited at 2012-11-01 13:11 GMT]


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Gerry Vickers  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 19:39
Member (2007)
Czech to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Classic Nov 1, 2012

Do you know if it is possible to transfer a licence for Pro to Classic? If so, I might give it a try.

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Dominique Pivard  Identity Verified
Local time: 21:39
Finnish to French
Tring Classic Nov 1, 2012

Gerry Vickers wrote:
Do you know if it is possible to transfer a licence for Pro to Classic? If so, I might give it a try.

As the holder of a Pro license, you can either convert it into a Classic license at no cost, or add Classic to it for a relatively low cost (currently 75 euros). However, I would advise you first install it and use it a demo version mode. You can find more information here:

http://wordfast.net/wiki/Wordfast_Classic


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Dominique Pivard  Identity Verified
Local time: 21:39
Finnish to French
Classic vs. Pro Nov 1, 2012

Gerry Vickers wrote:
I was under the impression that Wordfast was the same whichever version, just in a slightly different format, and that Pro would have more functionality – that’s why I purchased it, and I actually quite like the interface.

Pro was introduced in January 2009, and that's when you purchased your license, so you haven't been using it for 7 years. Classic exists in its current form since 2001, but was already at version 3 at the time.

Classic and Pro are two different programs. Don't let their names mislead you, it's not like they're the basic and advanced versions of the same program. The main selling point of Pro is that it supports multiple file formats and lets you use multiple TM's (Classic mostly works with Word documents and only supports 1 or 2 TM at the time). The main selling point of Classic is that you work inside the document you're translating. Classic has a better autocomplete feature, better MT support, better spellchecker support, better terminology support etc. But the learning curve is also steeper (IMO).


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Gerry Vickers  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 19:39
Member (2007)
Czech to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
. Nov 1, 2012

You're right. I was using a different version beforehand - that must have been Classic, and the demo version at that, and sparingly. I seem to remember that it was quite good.

I'll contact Wordfast and see if I can swap. I can't see any point in me having both, as clearly the Pro version doesn't do what I need it to do. Are the 'unclean' files that it produces compatible with trados? I ask because that is what clients require, if they require it at all.

Thanks


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xxxchristela
Wordfast Classic Nov 1, 2012

can only handle Word files, but does this well. Some other formats (Powerpoint, Excel, ... are possible but complicated and the procedure does not always give the desired results.
So it is best to have them both, and regularly switch from the one to the other.

The basic principles of WF Classic can be learned in about two or three hours, WF Pro took me a bit longer, one or two days, and I started from scratch.

When translating a Word document with WF Classic, you'll obtain a "bilingual" document, that is: the source segments are followed by the translated segments.
During the cleanup process, the source segments disappear and the translated segments remain.
The translated document is then saved as .doc or .docx, and the bilingual (intermediary) or 'unclean' document will be kept as a .bak file. This bilingual document is compatible with Trados and can be processed by some Trados versions, and that's why agencies ask for it.

While working, you'll also obtain a TM. This one is not directly compatible with Trados but can be converted into an exchange format, which can be used by all other software. Sometimes a small glitch happens (this does not happen very often, I had this problem only once in ten years), but then, if necessary, the agency can again use the bilingual files to create their own TM with their own software.

Hope this helps.

[Edited at 2012-11-01 21:25 GMT]


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Gerry Vickers  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 19:39
Member (2007)
Czech to English
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TOPIC STARTER
Better the devil you know ... Nov 2, 2012

Well I have been trying to get my head around Classic for a while today, and it is ringing some distant bells, but I am 99% certain that I wasn't using it 'correctly' before. As I have quite a lot on my plate I think it is a case of better the devil you know for the moment ... after all, it has taken me since 2009 to sort of get the hang of the basics of the Pro version - goodness knows how long it would take me to learn another one
I am also concerned that Classic cannot deal properly with Excel or Powerpoint as I do occasionally work with these formats.


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Dominique Pivard  Identity Verified
Local time: 21:39
Finnish to French
Classic learning curve Nov 2, 2012

Gerry Vickers wrote:
Well I have been trying to get my head around Classic for a while today, and it is ringing some distant bells, but I am 99% certain that I wasn't using it 'correctly' before. As I have quite a lot on my plate I think it is a case of better the devil you know for the moment ... after all, it has taken me since 2009 to sort of get the hang of the basics of the Pro version - goodness knows how long it would take me to learn another one

Yes, as I said, Classic has a rather steep learning curve, and I don't believe many people can learn it in 2-3 hours like Christela.

Gerry Vickers wrote:
I am also concerned that Classic cannot deal properly with Excel or Powerpoint as I do occasionally work with these formats.

Indeed, the built-in method in Classic has shortcomings with Excel and PowerPoint. However, you can also use the following (unsupported and unofficial) method:

http://wordfast.fi/blog/cat-tools/2012/03/04/translate-any-format-in-wordfast-classic-with-wordfast-pro-3/


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Gerry Vickers  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 19:39
Member (2007)
Czech to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
. Nov 2, 2012

... I was giving it another go last night, but annoyingly I ran out of demo credits.

I see where the cleanup function comes into play with this version, whereas I still don't understand what it is there for in Pro, but it doesn't appear to have copied to my main TM - I tried uploading the same file in Pro just now, using the same TM that I specified when translating using the demo Classic version, but it isn't returning any results. It doesn't matter too greatly as it is straightforward stuff and there isn't a lot of it, but maybe it is a demo thing.

Having re-acquainted myself with the Classic version I don't quite understand why there are two versions, one of which is called 'Pro' yet seemingly has less functionality and everyday use than the classic version - it has lots of bells and whistles, but unless you are an IT specialist with lots of time on your hands and/or you enjoy the theoretical side of things, I can't see the logic or, indeed the point, as I now see that it is very cumbersome.

Are there plans to create one single platform? A program that has the functionality of classic, but which could do excel and powerpoint as well without having to read a 467-page manual?

I have just noticed that in Pro there are two screens - one showing a table view and another called 'text', which looks identical to the Classic interface. Can I copy and paste that and use it as an 'unclean' file?

While I mull over it, I need to remove the toolbar from Word - how do I do this?

Sorry if I sound a bit dim, but I am certain I am not the only person who has wondered this. There are plenty of busy non-IT-savvy translators out there!

Thanks!



[Edited at 2012-11-02 13:52 GMT]


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xxxchristela
One platform Nov 2, 2012

WF Pro was meant to be that platform, for translation of all kind of files, from Word to Excel, Powerpoint, html, xml, pdf, etc. etc. It happened that WF (the company) came rather late on the market with this version, so that most people who had years and years of experience with Classic experienced some difficulties in a) accepting it b) didn't understand some basic procedures, such as creating a project, moving around tags c) had to slow down their translation processes (at one-third of original speed, as far as I was concerned), d) had bugs and complications which came with the first versions. The bugs have been resolved, the rest is a kind of psychological barrier for old Classic users. They have made it too complicated. An example of this is the uninteroperability of the glossary files.

In short, as far as I see it, WF Pro had to be the future, and we are still mostly working in Word with a macro, or needing them both.

What you suggest (translation of Powerpoint/Excel/etc. in Word) is now technically impossible, precisely because this kind of standalone tools is meant to be platform and software independent. They cannot develop anymore dozens of different tools (in fact macros) for old Word 2003, Word on Mac, etc., - they have just one tool which handles them all. The same goes for Trados Studio.

.


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Christel Zipfel  Identity Verified
Member (2004)
Italian to German
+ ...
Classic learning curve 2 Nov 2, 2012

Dominique Pivard wrote:


Yes, as I said, Classic has a rather steep learning curve, and I don't believe many people can learn it in 2-3 hours like Christela.



Well, I have been another one I think you are the first person asserting that WfC has a "steep learning curve".

It has been my first CAT tool ever and despite this fact I found it surprisingly easy to be learnt, unlike others I have tried since then. I won't say I know everything and actually, I still discover new features occasionally or have to ask advice to more expert users than me. Its only drawback is, like it already has been said, working with Excel or Powerpoint files, but for those one can use Pro.

Furthermore, it is very stable, at least the versions I have used so far.


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John Di Rico  Identity Verified
France
Local time: 20:39
French to English
Shortcut keys Nov 2, 2012

Since this post steered into a discussion of Pro vs Classic learning curves, I thought I would point out that the next release of WF Pro will have default shortcut keys that are the same or very similar to Classic shortcut keys.

This is great for Classic users who haven't started using Pro yet, not so good for Pro users who have never used Classic and are thinking of taking it for a test drive. It'll be comparable to driving on the wrong side of the road, when you're used to driving on the "right" side

Best,

John Di Rico
Wordfast Trainer
www.wordfast.fr


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