| ali عَلِيّ
Explanation:
/ali/
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Note added at 10 mins (2017-10-08 21:15:33 GMT)
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I'd prefer to say /alii/ rather than /ali/
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Note added at 1 day18 hrs (2017-10-10 15:38:50 GMT)
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1. This is not an /A/ sound, /A/ is closest representation in English. The Ayn sound is released from the back of the mouth, around the glottal area. It is the furthest point at the back of the mouth, where sounds are released. Other examples glottal are: ء، ح، ع، غ، ق. These are extremely difficult to pronounce, particularly for learners of Arabic.
2. Well this is the correct form of this name. In English, Ali is pronounced /ali/, not only in English but also in colloquial Arabic. But, for Classical Arabic, its /Alii/.
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Note added at 1 day18 hrs (2017-10-10 15:39:18 GMT)
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No, you can use Shaddah on vowels too.
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Note added at 1 day23 hrs (2017-10-10 20:09:10 GMT)
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1. Non-glottal of course
2. I don't know why the site didn't mention shaddah on vowels. If you remember you and I went through one of these examples together with the word Arabiyya عَرَبِيَّة, which you can see clearly how the shaddah is functioning on the /ya/ letter with a fatha.
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Note added at 2 days17 hrs (2017-10-11 14:32:57 GMT)
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1. If you use ALIF and Ayn it becomes pronounced like this: /3aali/ عالي instead of /3alii/ عَلِىّ(the 3 represents the glottal sound).
2. أبْجَدْ هَوَّزْ /abjad hawwaz/. You can clearly see the doubling on the w (و), which is a vowel.
HTH
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Note added at 6 days (2017-10-14 21:32:18 GMT)
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﴿ اللّهُ لاَ إِلَهَ إِلاَّ هُوَ الْحَيُّ الْقَيُّومُ لاَ تَأْخُذُهُ سِنَةٌ وَلاَ نَوْمٌ لَّهُ مَا فِي السَّمَاوَاتِ وَمَا فِي الأَرْضِ مَن ذَا الَّذِي يَشْفَعُ عِنْدَهُ إِلاَّ بِإِذْنِهِ يَعْلَمُ مَا بَيْنَ أَيْدِيهِمْ وَمَا خَلْفَهُمْ وَلاَ يُحِيطُونَ بِشَيْءٍ مِّنْ عِلْمِهِ إِلاَّ بِمَا شَاء وَسِعَ كُرْسِيُّهُ السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالأَرْضَ وَلاَ يَؤُودُهُ حِفْظُهُمَا وَهُوَ الْعَلِيُّ الْعَظِيمُ ﴾
Check the word before last.
But we don't use the shaddah the proper way, we just say Ali
HTH
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Note added at 6 days (2017-10-14 21:35:13 GMT)
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You can use it without shaddah.
With: عَلِيّ
Without: عَلِيْ
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Note added at 6 days (2017-10-15 06:42:47 GMT)
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The reason why I say you can use it without shaddah is because we don't use it the correct way. So, without, is the common way of pronouncing the name. But, really the correct way is not used at all. It is very rarely used, such as in religious films or documentaries.
| Mohammed Majeed
United Kingdom
Local time: 19:09
Native speaker of: Arabic
PRO pts in category: 4
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Notes to answerer
Asker: 1. Does the FATHA on the AYN make it long? I'm asking, because AYN is a different A (like in the English word ART or FAR), but the FATHA is a regular A (as in American English STOP). So will the long vowel A then sound as in ART or as in STOP?<br><br>
2. Why is there a SHADDA? I mean, in order to make the vowel I long, it's enough to have a KASRA and a YA and it's already long. The SHADDA only doubles consonants, so it doubles the YA theoretically, but this YA here has the role of a LONG I already, so we can't pronounce it as YY here, am I right? Then what is that SHADDA doing here? What is its role here? To make an already LONG I even longer? That wouldn't make sense to me.
Asker: 1. Yes, AYN is a glottal sound, but FATHA (regular A) is not glottal. That's why I was wondering, which sound would be prolonged by FATHA, the glottal or non-glottal A?
2. Well, if you scroll down to "Gemination", its says: "Gemination is the doubling of a consonant." and in the table "shaddah - consonant doubled". So is this Wikipedia link wrong then?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arabic_alphabet
Asker: And a direct link to SHADDAH says the same:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shadda
Asker: 1. Well, not of course, because there was a 50% chance for each answer and if they had wanted non-glottal, they could have just used an ALIF+FATHA, but why AYN+FATHA? ALIF+FATHA would have been "of course", because BOTH ALIF and FATHA are non-glottal. This was a legitimate question. But thank you for your answer: non-glottal.
2. Well, Wikipedia mentioned DOUBLING CONSONANTS specifically in several places. If they thought, that SHADDAH was supposed to be on top of ANY letter, then they would have written DOUBLING LETTERS instead. Hence everyone was free to conclude logically, that the rule was meant for CONSONANTS ONLY.<br><br>
In the case of ARABIYYA the SHADDAH doubles the Y, becoming YY and Y functions a CONSONANT in this case. According to the above-mentioned Wikipedia source of the Arabic alphabet the letter YA has 2 pronunciations: either Y (consonant) or a LONG I (vowel). The BI in ARABIYYA is a short I, so the SHADDA did not double that short I. But since (according to Wikipedia) the SHADDA doubles only PREVIOUS CONSONANTS, that previous consonant in this case was the letter YA, which functioned here as a Y, so even you wrote it with a double Y = YY. The FATHA on top of the SHADDA was a short A, but it was doubled/prolonged not by the SHADDA, but by the TA MARBUTAH coming AFTER the FATHA.
Asker: So ARABIYYA is not a good example of a SHADDA on vowels. Do you have another example, where a SHADDA really doubles the previous vowel? If you do, I'd love to see it (with FULL diacritics, of course).
Asker: 1. I never mentioned to write ALIF+AYN. I mentioned ALIF+FATHA vs. AYN+FATHA. Big difference. Now about the short I in your first version, of course it's short, because you took off the KASRAH. But you only took it off from your first version, but not from your second, so your second version is indeed with a LONG I.
Asker: 2. Thank you for your example, but W is NOT a vowel, it's a consonant. However, the letter WAW has 2 pronunciations: W (consonant) or U (vowel). So again, it all comes down to what its function is in a certain word and each word is different. So in your example ABJAD HAWWAZ there was a reason, why you didn't write HAUUAZ. You consciously wrote HAWWAZ, because WAW is a the consonant W here. And you consciously avoided to write HAUUAZ, because WAW is not the vowel U here. So when a letter has 2 pronunciations (one being a consonant, the other a vowel), then you CANNOT classify it as one or the other ONLY, because it's BOTH a consonant, AND a vowel, DEPENDING ON its usage in a particular word. So the given word determines, why one it's going to be: consonant or vowel. But if you pronounced it as W already, then I'm sorry, but you automatically committed yourself to a consonant.
Asker: I meant "which one it's going to be" (not "why").
Asker: So is the SHADDA really necessary there? Because EVEN WITHOUT the shadda it's a LONG I already, because you have a KASRA (short I) and a YA (functioning as a LONG I, not as a Y) there. So after 2 letters I there wouldn't be a need to make the I even longer, but according to Wikipedia shadda only doubles consonants, anyway. So I really don't see the need for a shadda there, unless you can quote me an example from an Arabic text of Ali with the shadda. But even so, I still don't see a role, a purpose for shadda here, especially at the very end of a word.
Asker: Please, let me know, whether it's correct to write this word WITHOUT SHADDA or not! And please, write it also without the shadda for me, so I can copy it! Thanks.
Asker: And if your opinion is, that the most correct way to write this name is WITH SHADDA, then could you quote a link (possibly from the Quran), where this name is written with a shadda at the end?
Asker: Okay, so I'd like to go with the proper (most correct) way, so I'll go with the SHADDA as عَلِيّ, but then I'd like to know, whether the sound I is long in both cases (referring to your With: and Without: examples) or not. So do you agree with me, that in both these cases the sound I, which we actually pronounce, is LONG?
Asker: Thank you for your example from the Quran and I copied & enlarged it, but with these many words, I think, my copy got a little messed up. Nonetheless, I was combing through everything, but all the SHADDAs at the ends of words were NOT FINAL SHADDAs (as in Ali), because they still had DAMMAs (U) on top of the SHADDAs. This DAMMA (U) above the SHADDA makes this not a good example, because then the word ends in -YYU. However, I meant a clearly identical example to Ali, where there is NOTHING, absolutely nothing above the SHADDA, so the SHADDA is really FINAL: it's the VERY LAST character in that word. When there's a vowel, like DAMMA (U), after the SHADDA, then there's never been a question about that pronunciation: -YYU.
Asker: OK, I understand, that the correct/proper way is WITH SHADDA. But what I don't understand and I had asked this before, is: What is the role/purpose of THIS shadda in THIS word, عَلِيّ ALII? You wrote, that you pronounce it differently, but how differently? I know, you had mentioned ALI vs. ALII before, but the I is LONG in BOTH cases already, because of the KASRAH + YA. So you can't deny, that in both cases the I is long, can you? So what's the difference then in the -LI part of ALII? I'm not concerned about the A- part, we've covered that already. So please, focus specifically on the -LI part, where the SHADDAH is and let me know unambiguously, what the role/purpose of this SHADDAH is right here? What does THIS shaddah do in THIS word only? Does it prolong a sound? Or does it do something else? So other, than being proper/correct, WHY is it there? What's its function precisely?
Asker: OK, I have to close this question now, because ProZ is urging me and it's been a long time, but it's still not clear.
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