Derviš I Smrt

English translation: Death and the Dervish

GLOSSARY ENTRY (DERIVED FROM QUESTION BELOW)
Bosnian term or phrase:Derviš I Smrt
English translation:Death and the Dervish

11:53 May 26, 2004
Bosnian to English translations [Non-PRO]
Social Sciences - Government / Politics / Bosnia
Bosnian term or phrase: Derviš I Smrt
sorry, I am not sure if this in Bosnian or Croat or Serbian. So, please feel free to change the language pair.

is 'smrt' = death?
lafresita
United Kingdom
Local time: 09:59
Death and the Dervish
Explanation:
Derviš i smrt (Death and the Dervish) is a well known novel written by one of the best former Yugoslav (Bosnian) writers Meša Selimović. I don't know in what context this title of his is used, but I suppose it serves there as a metaphor. The novel has been translated into English, German, French, so the translation I have recommended is the original one. Please, see the following site for more details. (... There are other sites, too...)

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 18 hrs 38 mins (2004-05-27 06:31:51 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Moj odgovor kolegi Chigago Bosnian je, naravno, najdobronamjerniji uz potpuno uvažavanje njegovih osjećaja. Ovo dodajem da moj kratki komentar nebiste pogrešno shvatili.
Selected response from:

Marija Vujosevic Caric
Croatia
Local time: 10:59
Grading comment
Thanks to all!
4 KudoZ points were awarded for this answer



Summary of answers provided
5 +4Death and the Dervish
Marija Vujosevic Caric
5 +3Derviš i Smrt by Meša Selimović
Nedzad Selmanovic
5 +1(Answer to Mr. Selmanovich)
BUZOV
5Smrt=Death
Prishtina
4Derwish and The Death
BUZOV


Discussion entries: 4





  

Answers


5 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 5/5
Derviš I Smrt
Smrt=Death


Explanation:
Yes, smrt is death.

Prishtina
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10 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 5/5 peer agreement (net): +3
Derviš I Smrt
Derviš i Smrt by Meša Selimović


Explanation:
Mislim da se u svemu ovome razvija jedna situacija koja vodi konfliktu ličnih mišljenja. I sam sam skoro bio u prilici da pročitam tekst uvredljivog sadržaja koji se ticao mog maternjeg jezika, te sam na to reagovao. Možda nisam reagovao na pravi način (možda pak i jesam) ali su proradile emocije, pogotovo stogo što se radilo o nečemu što je dirnulo moj nacionalni, kulturni, i svaki drugi vid identiteta koji sam po rođenju dobio.
S dužnim poštovanjem, kolegi BUZOVU želim skrenuti pažnju da nismo na recenzentskom forumu, i da unošenje ličnih stavova u komentare o povijesti bilo koje države ili naroda na ovom mjestu ne stoji. Kako god on naišao na pozitivan odjek kod jednog dijela publike, tako će naići i na negativnu reakciju. Znači professionalism and impartiality kao pravilo broj jedan u ovom poslu. Ostavimo prošlost historičarima koji će davati svoje ocjene i kvalifikacije o tome šta je bilo jučer, prekjučer i tako dalje unazad do davnijeh dana.
Chicago Bosnian, zemljak, je reagovao bučno i spomenuo jedan čitav nacion u jednom kontekstu koji nije prikladan. Ne želim nikoga braniti a niti optuživati, ali je činjenica da se ne može optužiti čitav jedan narod za greške koje je možda počinila i većina (u ovom slučaju nije bitno da li je većina ili manjina). Neko će možda neko reagovati i na stav koji je cijenjeni kolega dao. Treba znati da jedna iskra vuče drugu, i da se tako pali vatra. Tja, zar to nismo naučili lekciju tokom zadnjih 15-ak godina? Treba li nam možda popravni? Meni lično ne.
Razmislite kuda bi nastavak diskusije mogao odvesti. Na kraju krajeva, šta da je Meša živ i da može vidjeti kako njegovo djelo temelji jedan sukob mišljenja i potencijalnu razmjenu tekstualne paljbe?
Dajte malo više razumijevanja i shvatanja. Biće nam svima bolje. Ipak, ovdje smo da bismo pomogli jedni drugima u poslu i svakodnevnom životu (i uz to sakupimo po koji KudoZ), a na kraju krajeva, sajt je dao mogućnost personalne identifikacije koju članovi mogu pokrenuti.
Apsolutno mi nije drago što izigravam UNPROFOR, jer i ne bi trebao ali eto, jednostavno sam morao da napišem svoj komentar. Bik Koji Sjedi je rekao. Haug. Neka Veliki Manitu prekrije učesnike smirenošću i uputi u tajne divnog mjesta koji se zove dunjaluk.

Pozdrav svima, i eventualno izvinjenje široj i užoj publici ako moj tekst nađe uvredljivim.

Nedžad

Nedzad Selmanovic
Local time: 10:59
Specializes in field
Native speaker of: Native in BosnianBosnian, Native in Serbo-CroatSerbo-Croat

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  Marija Vujosevic Caric: Bravo, Nedžade. Ovo je uzorno razmišljanje.
8 hrs
  -> hvala vam velika Marija. Nisam namjeravao nikoga uvrijediti niti želim postići da se neko osjeća nelagodno, no ipak kolega BUZOV je sakrio svoj odgovor. Svi mi ponekad napravimo grešku, ali smatram da je trebamo biti svjesni i nešto naučiti iz toga.

agree  BUZOV: Mišljah ... NE odgovarati, jer nema svrhe i samo stoga SAKRIH odgovor .. . ali šta se mora, mora se... Pogledajte ŤAnswer to Mr. Selmanovichť ... Pa evo, OTKRIVAM ga opet , premda ne znam zašto bi taj odgovor IKOMU bio referenca, baš zbog profodgovronosti
1 day 27 mins
  -> Hvala vam velika. Ništa se ne mora, osim mrijeti kad nam kucne čas. Ja jesam jednom i opet se rodio (živa istina). Zato rekoh ono o greškama. Pero mi nije siromašno, niti je tupo. Ako se desi, pa sjednemo skupa, diskutovaćemo o bilo čemu. Sve najbolje.

agree  irenazd: Svi smo bili jednom jugosloveni. Steta sto to vise nije tako, sto drugi nam kazu sta i kako da radimo, kao 50 godina da smo ziveli u pecinama, kao da nismo citali knjige autora iz svih republika ex YU....
1 day 9 hrs
  -> hvala vam velika

neutral  Chicago-Bosnian: http://pub207.ezboard.com/bsarajevo38956 We can discuss this issue but in another place. Click on this link or copy and paste, I'll be there. By the way everyone is welcome to join.
1 day 13 hrs
  -> hvala vam velika, no nemam apsolutno nikakvu namjeru započinjati ili nastavljati diskusiju sa osobama koje me javno vrijeđaju (ref. see your comment on my answer given in response to KudoZ question PEACE, En-Ba).
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25 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 5/5 peer agreement (net): +4
Derviš I Smrt
Death and the Dervish


Explanation:
Derviš i smrt (Death and the Dervish) is a well known novel written by one of the best former Yugoslav (Bosnian) writers Meša Selimović. I don't know in what context this title of his is used, but I suppose it serves there as a metaphor. The novel has been translated into English, German, French, so the translation I have recommended is the original one. Please, see the following site for more details. (... There are other sites, too...)

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 18 hrs 38 mins (2004-05-27 06:31:51 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Moj odgovor kolegi Chigago Bosnian je, naravno, najdobronamjerniji uz potpuno uvažavanje njegovih osjećaja. Ovo dodajem da moj kratki komentar nebiste pogrešno shvatili.


    Reference: http://www.complete-review.com/reviews/selimm/dervish.htm
Marija Vujosevic Caric
Croatia
Local time: 10:59
Works in field
Native speaker of: Native in CroatianCroatian, Native in SerbianSerbian
Grading comment
Thanks to all!

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  Nedzad Selmanovic: a must have title
53 mins
  -> Hvala.

agree  Kemal Mustajbegovic: Selimovic, Mesa. (Dervis i smrt. English.) Death and the dervish. / Translated by Bogdan Rakic and Stephen M. Dickey ; Introduction by Henry R. Cooper, Jr. Evanston, Ill. : Northwestern University Press, c1996.
1 hr
  -> Hvala.

agree  Dina Bostandzic
4 hrs
  -> Hvala.

agree  Chicago-Bosnian: Mesa Selimovic was Bosnian - he has never been Yugoslav. The term 'Yugoslav' can't be used without Mesa's consent because there is no such a thing as 'Yugoslavia' anylonger. Yugoslavia collapsed. Also Dervish is a title/rang/position of respectable person
8 hrs
  -> Of course he was Bosnian. However, denying his much being part of our former nationality means lack of knowledge. I recommend reading him and about him.
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1 day 11 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5
Derviš I Smrt
Derwish and The Death


Explanation:
REWIVAL on esteemed coleague Selmanovich's incentive:

... in THAT VERY order... because, as everything in Bosnia, it has it's purpose and it's very specific meaning.

mjodlioveiec asked Prishtina:

Can you translate the whole prase. What is Dervis then?

This would take some 400 years of knowing Bosnia :
+ with the last Bosnian king of Croatian blood Stjepan Tomaševič
+ with the fall of Bosnian State in front of the mighty Otoman Empire
in 1463 A.D.
+ with islamisation of Bosniaks, in majority of dualistic BOGUMIL religion
+ with the OLD FAMILIES who REMEBERED their family history for centuries backwards ....
+ with much, much more ... whatever could've been place in 4 centuries of time
+ with mostly everything (as hidden STATE OF MIND) what UNFORTUNATELY was preserved to culminate in the Bosnian War 1992-1995 A.D. (some irrational "OLD DEBTS")... this is a VERY SENSITIVE and TOUCHY SUBJECT ... but neccessary to answer Asker's question properly...

AND ESPPECIALLY :
+ with the COMMUNIST YUGOSLAVIA.....
-----------------------------------------------
Let's try to "explain the phrase":

1) As good coleagues have said allready, MESHA SELIMOVICH was one of
the best Bosnian writers ...
2) Mesha's BROTHER was "wasted" by the Communist Regime in Yugoslavia
=> leads to Mesha's PERSONAL CONFLICT with the Yugoslavian Regime, in President Tito's times ...

3) As a "revenge" Mesha wrote a novel

4) UNABLE, because nobody would've dared to PUBLISH in the first place,to place the novel describing his brothers MURDER by the Regime in present time, Mesha places the novel "far back" in the times when (Turkish) Otoman Empire rulled Bosnia ...but everything in the novel invoces circumstances of his brother's death...

5) Even that way, the POINT of the novel HAD BEEN RECOGNIZED by the "everlasting & everawake" regime people ... and Mesha was placed into the JAIL....

6) Mesha DIED ... it was MISTY a bit ... whether Mesha dies in prison or quite shortly after he was released from the prison ....

7) So much for the "description"

-------------------------------------------

Now, the question: "What is Dervis then?"

DERVISH = muslim religious rank ("monach")... a priest which lives and works with his Brotherhood and does not get married ...
HEALING the people is just ONE of Derwishes regular tasks.. The MAIN ONE is to SERVE THE GOD by PRAYER and (very important) by PERSONAL SACCRIFICE ...
Ever seen those man with "skirts" who spin around their verticale for some 15-20 minutes and DO NOT fall down ... ???
THAT is a DERVISH .... there's MUCH MORE to say WHAT is a DERWISH.
----------------------------
So, Mesha had by his FREE WILL condemned HIMSELF to become a "Derwish in Communism" .... KNOWING very well in advance that this SURELY will lead to the conflict with (at those times) the Untouchibles ... and most propbably would lead him to the death ...

MANY SPECIALISTS and many "ordinars" people in early 1970's agreed that:
(quote): "MESHA PREDICTED HIS OWN DEATH BY THAT NOVEL BUT WROTE IT ANYWAY" ..." (end of quote)

----------------------------------------------------------

And this is WHY, regardeless of any esteemed translations, who maybe didn't pay enough attetion to the Bosnian soul, Bosnian state of mind, Bosnian Cirumstances at the time... THE ORDER of the words in the Title MUST NOT be changed ...

Because => FIRST was DERWISH (by his own chois)
and only after that the DEATH came ....
-----------------------------------------------------
That was hoew the story looked like "from the first row of seats" ...
--------------------------------------------------------

I hope this gives just a bit of insight ...
Understading BOSNIA takes a lot of studying ... and ABOVE ALL ...
Understading BOSNIA ... REQUIRES an IMMENSE SOUL ...


--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 6 hrs 59 mins (2004-05-26 18:52:48 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Sorry for the missprints ... just, I always get emotional a bit more than it is "healthy", when Bosnia is concerned ... As a good neighbour, just accros the river.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 7 hrs 1 min (2004-05-26 18:54:36 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Sorry for the missprints ... just, I always get emotional a bit more than it is "healthy", when Bosnia is concerned ... As a good neighbour, just accros the river.



BUZOV
Croatia
Local time: 10:59
Works in field
Native speaker of: Native in CroatianCroatian
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1 day 10 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 5/5 peer agreement (net): +1
Derviš I Smrt
(Answer to Mr. Selmanovich)


Explanation:
A što, uvaženi kolega, ako ja LIČNO imam kojih 20-tak DUNUMA... AS MY PRIVATE PROPERTY u toj Vašoj ŤDrugoj Državiť ?
Ne od Babe moga, ne od miraza ... nego KUPLJENIH iz ličnoga ĆEIFA od VLASTITE mi plaće zarađene u Sloveniji !
ZAKONSKI uredno REGISTRIRANIH u KATASTRU ? ...
I smijem li tada IŠTA reći o BOSNI ?
Ili moram pitati Gov-a Paddy-ja Asdowna i Vaš UNPROFOR za dozvolu da uopće PROZBORIM o MOJIH 23 dunuma ?.

SMIJE li MUSTAFA SMAJIĆ, sestre mi suprug, nekad Tehnički direktor Rafinerije Bosanski Brod, IŠTA upitati o NJEGOVIM (GENERACIJAMA) dunumima u SIJEKOVCU ... na drugom izlazu 7 km dugačke Rafinerije ???

SMIJE li podstanar mi gosp. MATO , 60-godišnjak otprilike, IŠTA PROZBORITI o NJEGOVIH NEMALO dunuma u skoro samom CENTRU u Banja Luci.
Ili i njih dvojica moraju pitati Gov-a Paddy-ja i Vaš UNPROFOR za dozvolu da uopće PROZBORE ?.
Jer je to SADA ... Her Majesty's of the UK onaj Typical RIGHT of CLAIM ???

I ZAŠTO Mostarci na TV negdje na sam Ť1, Majť JAVNO govore o ŤTAMNOM VILAJETUť.
A barem njima, MOSTARCIMA ne možete onako s visoka ZANIJEKATI PRAVO da o Bosni govore !

SMIJU li YU-sudac za prekršaje ĆIRO BURUŠIĆ i sin mu KREŠIMIR , već desteljećima na stanu u Otočcu u Lici ... IŠTA upitati o NJIHOVIH 100-tinjak NE dunuma nego HEKTARA šume u MODRIĆI ???
Isto GENERACIJAMA ...
I Ćirinih 10-tak braće i sestara ... o NJIHOVIM DUNUMIMA i hektarima ???
Ili i njih dvojica i sva njihova FAMILIJA moraju pitati Gov-a Paddy-ja i Vaš UNPROFOR za dozvolu da uopće PROZBORE ?.

ZAŠTO biste, Vi kolega, ili ITKO drugi, trebali znati da je moja prva (rahmat-u –Alahi ) iliti Rahmetli supruga Aida bila unuka jedne Dizdarevićke Nefise iz Ljubuškoga i jednoga Ahmet-kadije Šehića iz Bišća ...

Znate li priču o ZMAJU od BOSNE i NAJBOLJEM mu prijatelju IVANU-fratru ... ???
I zašto je Zmaj od Bosne najprije UPOZORIO prijatelja iz djetinjstva ... pa mu IPAK odrubio glavu ... Iz profesionalizma !
To mu je prvo u oči i rekao: ŤIvane JESI mi prijatelj, al' imam ja i SULTANA !ť
.... pa kad Ivan nije zašutio, Zmaj i učinio !
I svaka mu čast ... ne znam tko bi mu mogao zamjeriti ...
To za vašu natuknicu o PROFESIONALIZMU ...

I još jakojako PUNO toga ... kao npr. Most u VIŠEGRADU ... tj ONA ĆUPRIJA, etc....

Stoga, za eventualne ikakve Vaše ŤPOPRAVNEť sami ste nadležni ... !

Pa da i Vas i CITIRAM, ako dopuštate: Svi mi ponekad napravimo grešku, ali smatram da je trebamo biti svjesni i nešto naučiti iz toga.
Dopušatteli da se VAŠA vlastita rečenica UBUDUĆE odnosi na SVE, uključujući ČAK I VAS LIČNO ???
A sada molim kolega, ostajući prema Vama lično UVIJEK u dobroj namjeri, i MERHABA UVIJEK U MOJ DOM I U DOM SVIH MOJIH POTOMAKA, il Hamdul'il Alla, objasnite AUTENTHICALLY kolegici Panowskiego podrijetla kaj znači: DERWISH !

Gospođi Mariji, s poštovnajen vaik kako je i red , tek kao napomena: Bilo je davno pa smo možda i ZABORAVILI, koliko je ŤDISKUSIJA NA NIVOUť već TADA u vrijeme prevođenja izazvao BAŠ taj REDOSLIJED riječi u Naslovu.
Ali, tako je rečeno s Terazija ...
Anybody having any doubts about it is most welcome to VERIFY the Records ...


--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 day 10 hrs 42 mins (2004-05-27 22:36:05 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

I kako je vidljivo, kolega , niste VI JEDINI tko je ROĐEN u BOSNI.
Još ih IMA !

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 day 11 hrs 31 mins (2004-05-27 23:24:48 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Pregledah još Vaš tekst, kolega Selmanovich, pa uočih:
Ostavimo prošlost historičarima koji će davati svoje ocjene i kvalifikacije o tome šta je bilo jučer, prekjučer i tako dalje unazad do davnijeh dana.

DAPAČE ...
Ali SVE OVO ŠTO NAPISAH, složit ćete se nadm se, NIJE PROŠLOST ... nego sasvim obična GOLA SADAŠNJOST ...

Imamo li, svi skupa, PRAVO na sasvim ORDINARY PRESENT TIMES ... ili i za to moramo tražiti Governor\'s Approvall ???

I BAŠ TU je ona POANTA okojoj je MESHA PISAO ... !!!

Read it AGAIN, please ... ANd not for my sake ... rather for your own !

BUZOV
Croatia
Local time: 10:59
Works in field
Native speaker of: Native in CroatianCroatian

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  Nedzad Selmanovic: Kolega, ne radi se o ovdje o vlasništvu nad zemljištem, ili porijeklu, To smo što smo. Samo nije vrijeme ni mjesto za javne rasprave o ovom ili onom. Shvatam vaše emocije, i ponavljam izvinjenje ako ičemu vrijedi. Budimo koncizni. Puno riječi stvara zbrku
1 hr
  -> Kolega, izvinjenje nije potrebno ! Za sve ostalo, ako Bog dadne, kad se sretnemo ! Lijepi pozdrav ! ... Da, a pozvat ćemo i šogora Mujicu i gosp. Matu, nisu daleko, da nam se pridruže uz .. što god već se nađe na stolu !
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