“入世” & “出世”

17:58 Dec 30, 2013 

祝各位同仁朋友新年愉快！

想不到不经不觉，我们用了 30 个帖子来完成讨论！

16:54 Dec 30, 2013 

（稍微离题一点）， 我赞同您们的意见， 教派都是人造的。很多时候，灵修和服务社群就是两件紧密相连、不可分割的事情。On another note, “world-engaged” sounds fine in this context.在此感谢大家所给予的宝贵洞见，也谢谢Seaguest提出了如此深入的问题。祝大家2014年快乐！

16:34 Dec 30, 2013 

非常感谢大家的指教，让我从中得到不少教益。由于想感谢的人太多，我不愿显得厚此薄彼，所以这次就不评分了。这里一并谢过参与这个帖子的各位朋友。希望大家以后有合作的机会。顺祝各位新年快乐！

16:28 Dec 30, 2013 

David，你说的是！我说麻烦，是说我个人在回顾神学争论中，觉得许多争议其实是各人偏执一隅的结果。我非常认同你说的：“我觉得将两种信仰表达方式以二分法来作分野，好像是邀功式的一种唯我独尊的判断。”的确，耶稣基督并不是一味的灵修，也没有只做治病赶鬼的工作。而是交替进行。突然想起耶稣在客西马尼园的祷告。他在受难前的灵修对于他最后坦然面对临到的命运，有着决定性的意义。我个人对基督教信仰的理解是：以出世的情怀做入世的工作。偏于一隅都不合基督之道。也非常感谢你们大家给我这么多宝贵的意见和提醒。

17:20 Dec 29, 2013 

Hi 在讨论过程中，其实我也有很多感慨，但是都忍住不讲出来，因为怕会离题，误了主题中翻英。

个人觉得不是我们的信仰 ’麻烦‘。我们的信仰完全不麻烦，只是 worldly 的地上教派关系沟通麻烦，他们不能容纳行出基督信仰的不同方式。耶稣自己在地上三十多年的服务社群，独力抵挡魔鬼诱惑、犹太领袖的逼迫及自己信徒的猜疑、出卖，他不是也会自己退到山上去独处’灵修‘吗？他并没有停止一切社关在山上灵修一辈子。也没有在犹大地只服务社群不去灵修。所以，我觉得将两种信仰表达方式以二分法来作分野，好像是邀功式的一种唯我独尊的判断。听说以个人修炼唯独的福音派教会运动 Lausanne Movement 也受到主流教派的走进人群的服侍方式所刺激，对社关方面的态度有一点容忍。其实有一个例子，如果不是卫理公会的马丁路得。金牧师 Martin Luther King Jr. 带头替饱受公众歧视的美国黑人伸张正义，20世纪黑人在美国恐怕还是二等、三等公民不能坐公交车，更遑论2012年有第一个民选黑人总统出现。

话说回头，我之前在第一个帖子已经提出了 'engagement in the world'的建议，后来你找到网上证道稿已经有人用更简化的 ‘world-engaged'。所以， 我觉得 ’world-enaged' 是可以的。你看看最后的修辞和整个段落的配合如何，顺不顺口就好。

谢谢你的问题和耐心等候我们的讨论。在圣诞节期间有一个相关的翻译题目来 ‘应节’，亦一大乐事也！

16:09 Dec 29, 2013 

这里多说几句，我们的信仰很麻烦的。出世入世争了两千年了。有避世修道的，也有要闹革命的。互相都看不顺眼，互相都能为自己找到理由。而且一不留神还会转到对方的立场上。非主流也主张要关心社会，但觉得人在参与社会活动过程中会迷失信仰。主流派也强调灵修，但又说社会实践就是灵修。

16:05 Dec 29, 2013 

突然想起来，耶稣基督似乎可以算是一位入世的典范。从本质上说，他是神的儿子，与上帝同体同等。是Unworldly的。但他为了拯救世人，而进入到这个世界中，过着一种与底层人民同样的苦难生活。他的言行在表面上都是Worldly的，但他的精神却始终是Unworldly的。从这个角度看，我还是觉得用World-engaged似乎更加贴切一些。

16:01 Dec 29, 2013 

非常谢谢David。我个人对“入世”或“出世”的理解，是认为这些词都指向一种运动过程。而Worldly和Unwordly只是描述一个事物的性质和存在空间。比如，“入世”应该是指Unworldly的事物进入到世界中，并且在世界里不丧失掉它的本质。而出世则是指向一个相反的运动过程。所以我觉得单纯的Worldly和Unworldly无法全面的传达原词的意思。但无论如何，您在这里给出的许多意见都令我受益匪浅。

15:50 Dec 29, 2013 

谢谢Sharon。我个人倾向于“world-engaged"。我觉得，虽然社会在广义上可以涵盖许多层面，但在某些学科里，社会其实只涉及私人事务，无法涵盖个人生活中的所有事务。比如，投票、宣战这些事务就不属于“社会”范畴。而且在基督教里，“世界”是与“天国”相对的一个概念。我理解作者虽然借用了佛教用语，但里面含有基督教教义的意味。

15:26 Dec 29, 2013 

@David Thanks for the enlightening discussion as well. I have certainly learned a new thing or two :) And yes, I'm glad we did not engage in a prickly theological debate.
@Phil Thanks for the dictionary link on Buddhist terms. This will come in handy someday.
@Seaguest All the best in translating the text! :)

14:58 Dec 29, 2013 

Yes, it's just a matter of personal preference. We understand the meaning thoroughly and provided accurate textbook answers. Now it's perhaps time to let Seaguest decide. Thanks for the interesting discussion. I've enjoyed it and we did not embroil in a complex Christian theological debate. :)

14:24 Dec 29, 2013 

Hi David, I understand where you're coming from and I don't think the use of the word "worldly" is wrong. As I said, it's just a matter of personal preference and I would prefer the use of another term. But yes, I am aware that this is purely subjective :)

14:11 Dec 29, 2013 

Hi Sharon,

My suggested version with the quotation marks on "worldly" if read together, means only about "social concern" of the churches as groups, not about preference or inclination of an individual on things such as fame and money. Moreover, the source text points to slight negativeness about 'social concern' as preferred by the mainline churches as a form of Christian testimony of Christ's love for all people. The author says that non-mainline churches thought social concern could 'sacrifice' 牺牲 and 'distort' 扭曲 the value of individual spiritual discipline. I don't think readers would think the mainline churches love money and fame in this context if they read the whole sentence, and the sentence before. Rather, they might think the mainline churches are too political. Politics, like money and fame, is an earthly thing anyway. Those who engage in political issues are not spiritual enough in their opinion. As such, I think my suggested translation conveys the same slight negativeness as in the source text while the meaning is accurate according to dictionary that worldly means ‘尘世的’、 ‘世俗的’、‘世事的’。

13:16 Dec 29, 2013 

Hi David, I agree that 入世 doesn't have to be over translated as it was brought up earlier in the sentence. Upon pondering on it further, I also agree that it is important to translate the notion of 世界 in the text.

However, I'm still a bit uncomfortable with using the word "worldly" as it has negative connotations in the Christian community. A "worldly" Christian is a believer who is preoccupied with fame and money instead of spiritual things, which isn't the case in this text. I know the term isn't being used that way here, and maybe it's just a matter of personal preference as I'm slightly uncomfortable with the semantics this term carries. All in all, I generally agree with your views.

12:17 Dec 29, 2013 

谢谢Sharon找到原文来自香港的中文大学神学期刊一篇有关华人神学教育历史（特别在中国）的文章。Very interesting! 这也解释了为什么出现佛教用语‘入世’和 ‘出世’的字词。也和我之前引用英国圣公会网页介绍教会engages in Home Affairs Policy（英国内政事务政策)的例子吻合，印证了主流教派在‘社关’方面的层面可以如斯广泛，不单social care的个人照顾层面。

以我看来，译文不能避免地须包含‘世界’的字眼或意思，因为原文指出主流教派積極參與社會和非主流教会只强调个人属灵修炼，两者的对立，对于基督教神学教育在中国的发展，以及在下一段所介绍的香港中文大学崇基神学系Chung Chi Theological Department 的创立，有一定影响。（意指非主流教会不会派学生去崇基神学系修读。崇基神学院主要财政支持来自主流教派，请参见原文。）‘崇基學院的成立，背後得到許多歐美的基督教團體、差會及本地教會團體的支持。...崇基學院神學及宗教教育系開創時，崇基學院院長凌道揚與該系委員會主席安迪生致函各教會，呼籲選派學生來院就讀。 當時，中華基督教會對崇基神學的支持甚大，於1959年通過派五人入讀，又在財政上支持崇基，並代向各外國教會申請資助。’

再看一次原文: '由於參與「合一」的宗派，大多屬 積極參與社會 的「主流宗派」（mainline churches)，這種「入世」的社關傳統，又很容早被偏向「出世」的屬靈傳統所質疑，認為「社會福音」的「偏差」會將「個人福音」的價值扭曲及犧牲。'

全句的开始已有提到 ‘積極參與社會的「主流宗派」the mainline denominations that engage actively in society, 在跟着的一句就不需 overtranslate 入世，个人认为只用 ‘worldly’ 即可。况且‘社关传统’ the tradition of social concern已经表达了engage in society的含义。

试译: Since most denominations that supported 'ecumenical church unity' were the mainline churches that engage actively in society, their 'worldly' tradition of social concern was also questioned by the spiritual traditions that favoured to seclude themselves from the world.

供参考。

16:49 Dec 28, 2013 

I still prefer the term "socially engaged". But it's really up to you :)

16:48 Dec 28, 2013 

I agree with David’s explanation of the text.
<br>
On another note, it seems that this text provided by Seaguest initially appeared in a (Christian) Divinity School Newsletter (<a>http://bit.ly/1logppL</a>, <a>http://www.cuhk.edu.hk/theology/en/introduction.htm</a>... As I have a feeling that the translated English text will cater to (Christian) English readers who are unfamiliar with Buddhist concepts, I think that using single word terms might not help to inform the reader. (Better to err on the side of caution and provide more explanation, or omit the terms altogether). As such, I suggest using examples such as “seclud(ing) themselves from the world” (which Seaguest has written) or *inward looking” to explain the concept of 出世, and “socially engaged or *outward looking” to explain the concept of 入世. These explanations could be put as a footnote, in brackets, or incorporated into the text.
<br>
*the terms "inward looking" and "outward looking" are commonly used to describe the stands of different churches.

13:19 Dec 28, 2013 

谢谢大家。看到一个网页，标题是"a world-engaged heart for all "，我觉得这个用法挺好。请大家看看。

http://brandonpugh.wordpress.com/2012/03/09/a-world-engaged-...

08:23 Dec 28, 2013 

Incidentally, my go-to reference for all things Buddhist is this rather old-fashioned but very useful dictionary:
http://mahajana.net/texts/kopia_lokalna/soothill-hodous.html
A Dictionary of Chinese Buddhist Terms
by William Edward Soothill and Lewis Hodous

22:52 Dec 27, 2013 

再翻阅一次牛津英汉双解字典，它对 ‘worldly' 的注释是 ’connected with the world in which we live rather than with spiritual things。中文则是 ‘尘世的’， ‘世俗的’， ‘世事的’。 The opposite is 'spiritual'。'connected with the world' is key here - 即是与世界有联系的。 我选用 worldly 因为一个基督徒如何和世界有关连，可以存在不同的程度。原文的 ‘社 关’ － 社会关怀 － 关注社会问题如贫穷人的遭遇、被欺压的边缘人士，正正是其中一种联系方式，也是他们的基督信仰的表达。

我明白作者的原意，指出主流教派的所谓 ‘社会福音’ 侧重关心社会，而忽略了个人灵性的操练。你想在翻译里将基督徒在社会问题事务上的参与用 engage 表达。个人觉得也可以的。请参见英国圣公会的链接，有 the Church engages in Home Affairs Policy 的字眼。

http://www.churchofengland.org/our-views.aspx

‘社关’ Social concern 本身就是一种 engagement in society。70－80年代始主流教派曾经提倡基督徒 'to serve in church 'and' society', 就是不光要服侍教会内的基督徒，更要将基督的爱心推出教堂围墙之外。除了作教会内的好信徒，也要关怀邻舍，学习好撒玛利亚人的榜样Good Samaritan，服务人群。

对了， 社关＝social concern，是普遍使用字眼，尤其指教会的社会关怀。不单是 social care 社会照顾, 请参见连接：
http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/3510030?uid=3738032&ui...
这个是浸信会的网页：http://www.guildfordbaptist.org/about/social-concern/

基于字典解释，我建议保留 ’world' 因为原文有 ‘世界’ 的意思，我们做翻译的好像尽可能保持原作字词，却同时可加上 engagement 如下：

This tradition of 'engagement in the world' through social concern was also questioned by the spiritual traditions that favored to seclude themselves from the world.

供参考。

19:18 Dec 27, 2013 

My understanding of the issue is summarized below: <BR><BR>
<TABLE><TR><TD align=center>Concept</TD><TD align=center>Method</TD><TD align=center>Goal</TD><TD align=center>Teaching</TD><TD align=center>Organization Type</TD></TR><TR><TD>Collective Salvation  <BR><BR></TD><TD>Save everyone in the world (partly through social justice).  <BR><BR></TD><TD>Spiritual Salvation (for all)  <BR><BR></TD><TD>Social Gospel  <BR><BR><BR></TD><TD>Social Ministry  <BR><BR><BR></TD></TR><TR><TD>Individual Salvation  </TD><TD>Save oneself (and sometimes friends and family).  </TD><TD>Spiritual Salvation  </TD><TD>Individual Gospel  </TD><TD>Spiritual Ministry  </TD></TR></TABLE>

18:04 Dec 27, 2013 

如果你指的是天主教或是基督教的教会,应该没有「关心社会」与「敌视社会」的问题,而是「社会/世界被拯救」与「个人被拯救」的问题。

17:17 Dec 27, 2013 

The concept of collective salvation is questioned by those who favor individual salvation, asserting the deficiencies of the social gospel distort and sacrifice the essence sought by the individual gospel.

16:00 Dec 27, 2013 

请大家看看，我这样翻译是否贴切？谢谢！
This tradition of ‘engaged’ social care was also questioned by the spiritual traditions that favored to seclude themselves from the world, asserting that the ‘deviation’ derived from the ‘social gospel’ will distort and sacrifice the essence of the ‘individual gospel’.

15:14 Dec 27, 2013 

谢谢大家！请问，如何把这个帖子改为Pro？我一直没找到相关的按钮。

14:45 Dec 27, 2013 

Sorry David.. still need to accumulate more points for "Vote Pro" to appear with my login.

09:25 Dec 27, 2013 

Thanks Sharon.

Can Shawn and tanglsus agree too? If so, please click the 'Vote Pro' button. It'll do justice to the level of the religious question.

09:02 Dec 27, 2013 

By the way, happy new year in advance! ;)

20:14 Dec 26, 2013 

由于问题挺难的，须要我们查看字典来确定给建议， 你可否将它从 Non-Pro 改成 Pro ＝ Professional?

16:09 Dec 26, 2013 

Thanks very much for your useful advice. the Chinese sentence is this: "由於參與「合一」的宗派，大多屬積極參與社會的「主流宗派」（mainline churches），這種「入世」的社關傳統，又很容早被偏向「出世」的屬靈傳統所質疑，認為「社會福音」的「偏差」會將「個人福音」的價值扭曲及犧牲。" Considering the context, I prefer a single adjective word to a phrase.