mr./meester

English translation: Master - with a footnote designating it is a title in Holland/Belgium for law graduates

GLOSSARY ENTRY (DERIVED FROM QUESTION BELOW)
Dutch term or phrase:mr./meester
English translation:Master - with a footnote designating it is a title in Holland/Belgium for law graduates
Entered by: bgranger

15:07 Apr 18, 2005
Dutch to English translations [Non-PRO]
Law/Patents - Law (general) / mr.
Dutch term or phrase: mr./meester
Hello fellow translators,

If one encounters the title 'mr.' with regard to a 'notaris' how is this best put into English? There has already been one question about this here on Proz (and it appeared that the best solution was to leave it out, according to one answerer), but here is another situation: in a translation I am proofreading the translator left this in as 'meester', to indicate the Dutch title, as opposed to the British LLM. Here is the line:

UITGEGEVEN VOOR AFSCHRIFT, op heden, de vierentwintigste januari tweeduizend drie, door mij, mr. Leonardus . . . , als waarnemer van mr. Johannes . . . , notaris te Rotterdam.

Finally, a last question slipped in here--in a date fully written out, is there a convention regarding whether 'hundred' is used for, for example, years such as 1959 (or is it simply 'nineteen fifty-nine')?
bgranger
Netherlands
Local time: 16:15
Master - with a footnote designating it is a title in Holland/Belgium for law graduates
Explanation:
.....

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Note added at 9 mins (2005-04-18 15:17:29 GMT)
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IF YOU LEAVE IT OUT IN THE MAIN TEXT AND FOOTNOTE ALTOGETHER, ALSO FINE

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Note added at 16 mins (2005-04-18 15:24:34 GMT)
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LLM is definitely not the same


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Note added at 17 mins (2005-04-18 15:25:41 GMT)
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in the year One Thousand Nine Hundred and Fifty Nine - question 2
Selected response from:

Lawyer-Linguist
Portugal
Local time: 15:15
Grading comment
Hi Deborah,

Thank you again for your help. I would have (and have previously) used LLM--but you obviously have the inside knowledge necessary to make this kind of decision.
4 KudoZ points were awarded for this answer



Summary of answers provided
4 +6Master - with a footnote designating it is a title in Holland/Belgium for law graduates
Lawyer-Linguist
4 +4LL.M.
M. Zeevaarder
4 +1master
Omar Cassar
3 -3Mr. or Mrs.
Els Thant, M.A., B.Tr. (X)


  

Answers


7 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5 peer agreement (net): +1
master


Explanation:
Master would suit best

Omar Cassar
United Kingdom
Local time: 15:15
Specializes in field
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish, Native in ItalianItalian

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  WIDIC: OK, in German it means: Dr. jur. (Doctor of jurisprudence)
2 hrs
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16 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5 peer agreement (net): +4
LL.M.


Explanation:
LL.M. (after the name) is equivalent. M. is also okay. See the web site indicated below for an article from NUFFIC.


    Reference: http://www.llm-guide.com/board/1463
M. Zeevaarder
Local time: 16:15
Specializes in field

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  avantix
7 mins

agree  writeaway: is what I always use and there's never been a complaint. it doesn't matter if it's not the exact equivalent to the English. it's not far off and people are happy to see the credentials after the name. if it's in NUFFIC it's close enough for this purpose
2 hrs

agree  Ljiljana Malovic
6 hrs

agree  11thmuse
13 hrs
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6 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5 peer agreement (net): +6
Master - with a footnote designating it is a title in Holland/Belgium for law graduates


Explanation:
.....

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 9 mins (2005-04-18 15:17:29 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

IF YOU LEAVE IT OUT IN THE MAIN TEXT AND FOOTNOTE ALTOGETHER, ALSO FINE

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 16 mins (2005-04-18 15:24:34 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

LLM is definitely not the same


--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 17 mins (2005-04-18 15:25:41 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

in the year One Thousand Nine Hundred and Fifty Nine - question 2

Lawyer-Linguist
Portugal
Local time: 15:15
Specializes in field
Native speaker of: English
PRO pts in category: 128
Grading comment
Hi Deborah,

Thank you again for your help. I would have (and have previously) used LLM--but you obviously have the inside knowledge necessary to make this kind of decision.

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
neutral  Els Thant, M.A., B.Tr. (X): doesn't that sound a bit strange? I've never seen it like that *** OK - thank you for your answer and explanation, Deborah!
4 mins
  -> It is the title of a legal graduate and definitely not Mr/Mrs as suggested - I normally footnote after the person's name as suggested - cannot be ignored nor should the abbreviation be used because of the English Mr.//no problem, keep well

agree  FullCircle (X): With Deborah's second option: leave it out and make a footnote; but don't leave it, because English readers will think it is a Mr.
18 mins
  -> thanks Marion

agree  Kate Hudson: I would advocate leaving it out all together as you suggest as it is quite unnecessary and confusing. The text is ''before me, Leonardus.."
1 hr
  -> yep, but include the footnote as people get very worked up about their titles and it would be regarded as a snub otherwise, once got s*** on from a heavy height by a colleague lawyer (poor chap)....;-)) for this

agree  Tina Vonhof: I agree with the footnote but would rather leave the mr. Master in English is often used to indicate a child or teenager.
1 hr
  -> Good point, I more often than not use my second option, some agencies prefer the former.

agree  Robert Kleemaier: Second option, but insert 'civil-law' notary to indicate the distinction between the common-law and civil-law variants. They are NOT the same. If your client insists, then retain, italicise and footnote it to provide the explanation.
1 hr
  -> thanks Robert, I italicise when I retain and footnote, didn't mention that, good point..

agree  writeaway: why not take Jurlex's AND Nuffic's suggestion and just use Mr/Ms/Mrs XXX,Master of Laws. footnoting and explanations in this sort of context are just awkward and stand out like a sore thumb. Keep it simple.
2 hrs
  -> because it actually isn't a Master of Laws which is a LLM but that's a debate for another day, too bushed now..;-)//read all of what Nuffic says - why equate things that are not the same in different educational systems, steer clear.

agree  Arsen Nazarian: with writeaway. We have to think also about ease of usage. As none of suggestions are %100 waterproof perhaps we can set for it (Master of Law - LLM), now that Jurlex suggests it too.
1 day 4 hrs
  -> thanks Sevan, but respectfully don't agree with Jurlex here - the LLM is actually not equivalent, I only know because I'm busy with one myself and am already regarded as a "Mr." on my present qualifications - best not to equate with different ed. systems
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4 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 3/5Answerer confidence 3/5 peer agreement (net): -3
Mr. or Mrs.


Explanation:
just put Mr. or Mrs.

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Note added at 5 mins (2005-04-18 15:12:57 GMT)
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hier zou het dus Mr. zijn, want het is een mannelijke notaris
\"Mr.\" not from \"Meester\", but from \"Mister\", of course...

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Note added at 6 mins (2005-04-18 15:14:00 GMT)
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I would put Mr. or just leave it out, both options are acceptable

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Note added at 7 mins (2005-04-18 15:15:34 GMT)
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put \"meester\" or \"mr.\" in an English seems a bit strange, especially \"mr.\", although people might think it is the same as \"Mr.\" and thus simply means \"Mister\"...

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Note added at 9 mins (2005-04-18 15:17:04 GMT)
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you can use LL M, but it is not exactly the same

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Note added at 3 hrs 13 mins (2005-04-18 18:21:50 GMT)
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voor alle duidelijkheid:
1. in mijn oorspronkelijke voorstel \"Mr. or Mrs.\" is \"Mr(.)\" natuurlijk het equivalent van \"dhr.\" (net als Mrs. = mw.)
=> de vertaling wordt dan: Mr. Leonardus X
2. om echter verwarring te vermijden (Mr. = Mister/Master?) zou mr. - afkorting van het Nederlandse \"meester\" - beter niet worden vertaald in het Engels (dit doe ik gewoonlijk) - deze verwarring zou er trouwens niet zijn mocht de notaris een vrouw zijn ;-)
3. voetnoten lijken me niet echt aangewezen, tenzij de klant dat echt wil

Els Thant, M.A., B.Tr. (X)
Ecuador
Local time: 09:15
Specializes in field
Native speaker of: Dutch
PRO pts in category: 16

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
disagree  avantix: I'd say LL.M is the best possible equivalent
21 mins

disagree  Robert Kleemaier: see my agreement with Deborah below
1 hr

disagree  WIDIC: the Dutch abbrreviation mr. means: meester in de rechten
2 hrs
  -> ach, dat weet ik wel, ook al schept mijn "note" wschl. verwarring; ik ben het eens met Deborah, hoor - zie hieronder...
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