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procesadvocaat

English translation: trial counsel

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GLOSSARY ENTRY (DERIVED FROM QUESTION BELOW)
Dutch term or phrase:procesadvocaat
English translation:trial counsel
Entered by: Chris Hopley
Options:
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- Include in personal glossary

11:13 Dec 5, 2003
Dutch to English translations [PRO]
Law/Patents
Dutch term or phrase: procesadvocaat
I have no context, just "procesadvocaat + [name]" in a letter about a UK [?] court case. I'm thinking along the lines of 'counsel'... Can anyone confirm or give correct solution?
Chris Hopley
Netherlands
Local time: 19:10
Comment
Explanation:
I thought I would add some comments on the English (incl. Welsh) court structure which may help inform your choice. (My apologies if you know all this anyway!)

Since the 1990 Courts and Legal Services Act, solicitors of 10 or more years standing may represent clients in the "higher courts", i.e. the Crown Court for serious criminal cases and the High Court for civil and commercial cases over a certain value. However, these solicitor-advocates need to undertake additional training before being admitted.

Traditionally, barristers have been able to represent their clients in all courts, i.e. magistrates' (which deal with minor criminal and civil cases, as well as indictments to the higher courts) and county courts (which deal with more serious criminal cases and civil cases involving claims below certain values, amongst other things), as well as the "senior courts" such as the High Court/Crown Court and the Court of Appeal and the House of Lords (the final court of the land before the European courts, soon to be replaced by an American-styled "Supreme Court"). Within this older system solicitors were only able to represent clients at the magistrates court and the county courts. However, since the 1990 Act this has changed, as I explained above.

There is also another important distinction between solicitors and barristers: barristers are not allowed to be instructed by clients directly (unless the clients are certain professionals, such as accountants). Barristers may only receive their instructions (or briefs) from solicitors. Solicitor-advocates may receive instructions directly from clients (since they are also qualified solicitors).

Barristers are generally and collectively referred to as "counsel". So given that solicitors (as well as (very) junior barristers) represent their clients in both the lower courts and may now also represent them in the higher courts if suitably qualified, I think "counsel" would cover (and circumvent) the old barrister/solicitor distinction).

There's a whole lot more, but you've probably lost the will to live by now....

;-)


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Note added at 2003-12-05 18:54:34 (GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Counsel of course was EdithK\'s suggestion!

:-)
Selected response from:

Adam Smith
United Kingdom
Local time: 18:10
Grading comment
I went for "trial counsel" in the end for the reasons outlined by Adam + plenty of Internet corroboration. Counsel not only avoids the barrister/solicitor/advocate problem, but also the transatlantic differences too. Thanks, Adam!
4 KudoZ points were awarded for this answer

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Summary of answers provided
5 +2counsel
EdithK
3 +4barrister
writeaway
5 +1Comment
Adam Smith
4 +1trial solicitor
Dave Greatrix
4Trial attorneyxxxjarry


Discussion entries: 4





  

Answers


1 min   confidence: Answerer confidence 5/5 peer agreement (net): +2
counsel


Explanation:
would spring to mind immediately

EdithK
Switzerland
Local time: 19:10
Native speaker of: Native in GermanGerman, Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in pair: 241

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  Gordon Darroch
53 mins
  -> Thanks.

agree  Adam Smith: I think this avoids the solicitor/barrister distinction nicely - see my comments below
7 hrs
Login to enter a peer comment (or grade)

3 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5 peer agreement (net): +1
trial solicitor


Explanation:
SCCRC: Scottish Criminal Cases Review Commission.
... The Commission also wrote to Mr X's trial solicitor to obtain copies of the defence
precognitions given by Mr A, Miss B and Mrs C. This was in order to ...
www.sccrc.org.uk/casestudies.cfm - 15k - 4 Dec 2003 - Cached - Similar pages

CASES
... 3... Trial defences were inadequate is some form or another and often by both
the trial Solicitor and trial Counsel 4... All allege that they were either ...
www.mojo.freehosting.net/cases.html


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Note added at 2003-12-05 11:22:34 (GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Barristers and counsels are not always used at all trials. It depends on the type of trial.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2003-12-05 11:58:36 (GMT)
--------------------------------------------------



(1)
TERM advocaat

Reference Reg.indiv.werkzaamheden en beroepen(SEDOC),Doc.V/1215/74,CEG;NL-Advocatenwet 1952(beide uitsluitend de m.vorm;van Dale(m.en v.vorm)

Note {NTE} \"advocate,advokate\":indien vrouw
(2)
TERM advokaat,advocate

Reference Reg.indiv.werkzaamheden en beroepen(SEDOC),Doc.V/1215/74,CEG;NL-Advocatenwet 1952(beide uitsluitend de m.vorm;van Dale(m.en v.vorm)

Note {NTE} \"advocate,advokate\":indien vrouw
(3)
TERM advokate

Reference Reg.indiv.werkzaamheden en beroepen(SEDOC),Doc.V/1215/74,CEG;NL-Advocatenwet 1952(beide uitsluitend de m.vorm;van Dale(m.en v.vorm)

Note {NTE} \"advocate,advokate\":indien vrouw



(1)
TERM solicitor barrister

Reference Reg.of occupations and professions(SEDOC),Doc.V/1215/74,CEC



--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2003-12-05 13:42:47 (GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Clarity:

In the \"good old days\" I appeared before Bow Street Magistrates. (nothing sinister). I had a trial solicitor who was responsible for preparing the necessary documents and statements to be used at the trial. The barrister is seen as the \"big guns\", and is responsible for the strategy at the trial and has an appropriate price tag.

Because of the expense, a barrister would only be used at \"serious\" trials. If a barrister can\'t be paid, he won\'t act.

So Chris, the gravity of the case included in your translation may give you a clue - Barrister or Solicitor?

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2003-12-05 13:49:20 (GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Just noticed Anjo has provided a useful ref.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barrister - gives a good explanation - solicitors repr. the client in lower courts and tribunals.

So if your case is something like murder, serious fraud, etc it would be a barrister.

If it\'s a civil action, dispute, simple fraud, even GBH, it would be a solicitor.

Dave Greatrix
United Kingdom
Local time: 18:10
Native speaker of: English
PRO pts in pair: 1747

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  Kate Hudson
5 mins

neutral  xxxjarry: I would tend to prefer trial counsel, because I think that a solicitor in Dutch would be a "procureur"
35 mins

neutral  Anjo Sterringa: iha bij een rechtbank is het barrister, andere officiële notaris-achtige zaken doe je bij een solicitor- in Engeland&Wales.
2 hrs
  -> Not so. A solicitor is seen more frequently in a court than a barrister.

neutral  writeaway: "Definition: solicitor: a British lawyer who gives legal advice and prepares legal documents". http://www.hyperdictionary.com/search.aspx?Dict=&define=soli... a solicitor does not plead a case in court.
4 hrs
  -> I've personally seen a solicitor plead a case in court on many occassions. However, it doesn't make me a bad person -))

neutral  Adam Smith: It could be a solicitor, solicitor-advocate or a barrister depending on the court and the crime/civil action. I prefer counsel which covers all three options.
7 hrs
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5 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 3/5Answerer confidence 3/5 peer agreement (net): +4
barrister


Explanation:
a lawyer who can represent you in proceedings is a barrister, generically speaking, no?

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2003-12-05 12:31:04 (GMT)
--------------------------------------------------



Definition:

\\Bar\"ris*ter\\, n. [From {Bar}, n.]
Counselor at law; a counsel admitted to plead at the bar, and
undertake the public trial of causes, as distinguished from
an attorney or solicitor. See {Attorney}. [Eng.]
http://www.hyperdictionary.com/search.aspx?Dict=T&define=bar...


writeaway
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in pair: 1340

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  Sven Petersson
35 mins

agree  Gordon Darroch: unless your case is in Scotland, where they're called advocates
48 mins

agree  avantix
1 hr

agree  Anjo Sterringa: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barrister - gives a good explanation - solicitors repr. the client in lower courts and tribunals.
2 hrs

neutral  Dave Greatrix: Depends on the case
2 hrs

neutral  Adam Smith: Depends on the court. A solicitor-advocate may now also represent clients in the High Court/Crown Court
7 hrs
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49 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5
Trial attorney


Explanation:
Multi-millionaire trial attorney Willie Gary speaks to North ...
File Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat - View as HTML
Multi-millionaire trial attorney Willie Gary speaks to North Carolina Central University’s
top law graduates about succeeding in the real world prior to ...
www.nccu.edu/Events/news/044.pdf - Similar pages

And 60,000 more hits on Google


--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2003-12-05 14:11:23 (GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Black\'s Law Dictionary (true, a US publication):
Attorney = In its MOST COMMON usage, unless a contrary meaning is clearly intended, this term means \"attorney at law\", \"lawyer\", or \"counsellor at law\". So let\'s not split hairs and call it a trial LAWYER instead of attorney as an aglo-saxon, transatlantic solution.

xxxjarry
South Africa
Local time: 20:10
Native speaker of: English
PRO pts in pair: 3855

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  writeaway: certainly not wrong, but I have the impression it is much more of a US term and is a synonym of trial lawyer.
31 mins
  -> Thanks for the suggestion!

neutral  Anjo Sterringa: watch out with google hits in legalese, as writeaway also said- difference in terminology between US, England and Scotland
1 hr
  -> I live in a jurisdiction where the law is based on Roman Dutch and English law and I am fully aware of the differences in the various legal systems. Attorney, however, is very common in this country, its British legacy notwithstanding.

disagree  Dave Greatrix: Chris has said it is a UK court case. Attorney would not apply.
1 hr
  -> Chris was careful to insert a question mark (?). Presumably not for nothing.
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7 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 5/5 peer agreement (net): +1
Comment


Explanation:
I thought I would add some comments on the English (incl. Welsh) court structure which may help inform your choice. (My apologies if you know all this anyway!)

Since the 1990 Courts and Legal Services Act, solicitors of 10 or more years standing may represent clients in the "higher courts", i.e. the Crown Court for serious criminal cases and the High Court for civil and commercial cases over a certain value. However, these solicitor-advocates need to undertake additional training before being admitted.

Traditionally, barristers have been able to represent their clients in all courts, i.e. magistrates' (which deal with minor criminal and civil cases, as well as indictments to the higher courts) and county courts (which deal with more serious criminal cases and civil cases involving claims below certain values, amongst other things), as well as the "senior courts" such as the High Court/Crown Court and the Court of Appeal and the House of Lords (the final court of the land before the European courts, soon to be replaced by an American-styled "Supreme Court"). Within this older system solicitors were only able to represent clients at the magistrates court and the county courts. However, since the 1990 Act this has changed, as I explained above.

There is also another important distinction between solicitors and barristers: barristers are not allowed to be instructed by clients directly (unless the clients are certain professionals, such as accountants). Barristers may only receive their instructions (or briefs) from solicitors. Solicitor-advocates may receive instructions directly from clients (since they are also qualified solicitors).

Barristers are generally and collectively referred to as "counsel". So given that solicitors (as well as (very) junior barristers) represent their clients in both the lower courts and may now also represent them in the higher courts if suitably qualified, I think "counsel" would cover (and circumvent) the old barrister/solicitor distinction).

There's a whole lot more, but you've probably lost the will to live by now....

;-)


--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2003-12-05 18:54:34 (GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Counsel of course was EdithK\'s suggestion!

:-)

Adam Smith
United Kingdom
Local time: 18:10
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in pair: 1145
Grading comment
I went for "trial counsel" in the end for the reasons outlined by Adam + plenty of Internet corroboration. Counsel not only avoids the barrister/solicitor/advocate problem, but also the transatlantic differences too. Thanks, Adam!

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  xxxjarry: You obviously know what you are talking about. Very succinctly put.
1 hr
  -> Thanks Jarry. You should see me when I get verbose! ;-)
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