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jonkheer

English translation: Squire

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GLOSSARY ENTRY (DERIVED FROM QUESTION BELOW)
Dutch term or phrase:jonkheer
English translation:Squire
Entered by: Dave Greatrix
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23:10 Jan 30, 2002
Dutch to English translations [Non-PRO]
/ Peerage
Dutch term or phrase: jonkheer
I'm doing a translation of a birth certificate and the gentleman has te title of "jonkheer". I know it is Dutch gentry. I also know that "jonkvrouw" is "Lady", but I can't seem to find a proper translation for the word. My English husband reckons that Squire or Esquire is not right. Anybody?
Willemina
Squire
Explanation:
Extract from ref:

In this connection it was particularly Jonkheer (squire) Samuël Wolther Trip who was important. He was an influential Groninger nobleman and in addition a useful amateur organist.

The decision is yours. Why not ask the client?? Translate or not?

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Note added at 2002-01-31 17:01:39 (GMT)
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Willemina, why not use Jonkheer with description following in parenthesis as above with squire, or Jonkheer ( Dutch title of nobility) etc. I am surs this would be acceptable for the purposes of identification.
Selected response from:

Dave Greatrix
United Kingdom
Local time: 08:11
Grading comment
Thanks for everyone's help. I tend to agree with you - also in view of use in google. I think I will make it a footnote, though.

Thanks again!
4 KudoZ points were awarded for this answer

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Summary of answers provided
5 +1jonkheer OR jonkheer*
Sven Petersson
5Lord [?]
Chris Hopley
4Squire
Dave Greatrix
4 -1esquirexxxtasman
2 -1don't translate
Ellemiek Drucker


Discussion entries: 2





  

Answers


8 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5 peer agreement (net): -1
esquire


Explanation:
That's what my Van Dale says and it sounds right to me.

Good luck,

J.

xxxtasman
Native speaker of: Native in DutchDutch
PRO pts in pair: 14

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
disagree  Sven Petersson: To translate it as "esquire" would be a grave translation error. See below!
7 hrs
  -> please explain further. Is a 'hertog' not a 'duke', a 'keizer' not an 'emperor'?
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1 hr   confidence: Answerer confidence 5/5 peer agreement (net): +1
jonkheer OR jonkheer*


Explanation:
NEVER EVER translate proper names or titles.

Put any explanation you deem needed in a footnote at the bottom of the page.

In this case I personally don't think a footnote is needed, as a "jonkheer" does not have a single legal privilege.


    Common sense.
    My geriatric brain.
Sven Petersson
Sweden
Local time: 09:11
Native speaker of: Native in SwedishSwedish, Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in pair: 346

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  Tina Vonhof
3 hrs
  -> Thank you very much!
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1 hr   confidence: Answerer confidence 2/5Answerer confidence 2/5 peer agreement (net): -1
don't translate


Explanation:
Hi Willemina,

I agree with Sven that you shouldn't translate titles like this.

Regarding the use of the word Esquire, I have heard that people put it at the end of the gentlemans name as a kind of honourary thing. Definately don't put it before the name.
I have seen it used as follows

John Smith Esq.

HTH

Best wishes
Ellemiek

Ellemiek Drucker
Local time: 08:11
Native speaker of: Dutch
PRO pts in pair: 17

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
disagree  Tina Vonhof: I meant to disagree with Sven as well. If you don't translate it or put in a footnate, it could be mistaken for (part of) the person's name.
3 hrs
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9 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5
Squire


Explanation:
Extract from ref:

In this connection it was particularly Jonkheer (squire) Samuël Wolther Trip who was important. He was an influential Groninger nobleman and in addition a useful amateur organist.

The decision is yours. Why not ask the client?? Translate or not?

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2002-01-31 17:01:39 (GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Willemina, why not use Jonkheer with description following in parenthesis as above with squire, or Jonkheer ( Dutch title of nobility) etc. I am surs this would be acceptable for the purposes of identification.


    Reference: http://www.geocities.com/Vienna/Strasse/8779/oekelen.html
Dave Greatrix
United Kingdom
Local time: 08:11
Native speaker of: English
PRO pts in pair: 1747
Grading comment
Thanks for everyone's help. I tend to agree with you - also in view of use in google. I think I will make it a footnote, though.

Thanks again!
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9 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 5/5
Lord [?]


Explanation:
In the past, I've done a lot of work on naming conventions and I can tell you that "jonkheer" is not actually a title as such, but is a style or "predikaat" and is hereditary.

I believe that styles can be translated (as can noble titles). An example of a style in common use is *Koninklijke* PTT Post. The legal name is PTT Post BV, which cannot be translated of course, but as the style is not part of the legal name, it can: Royal PTT Post (PTT Post without the BV being a registered trading name of PTT Post BV).

My suggestion of Lord is based on the information given at http://www.nobletitles.com/titles.htm in the section THE HONORARY OR "PARLIAMENTARY" NOBILITY.

http://www.groentje.nl/week/0128.htm
Wat is adel?
Al in de oudste culturen is een verschil te zien tussen een bovenklasse en een onderklasse. Deze verdeling is gebaseerd op arbeidsverdeling. De gewone man werkte op het land of hield zich bezig met de jacht. Een deel van de bevolking had bijzondere taken in de vorm van rechtspraak, bestuur en veiligheid. De Nederlandse adel kent een aantal titels en één predikaat. Het predikaat is jonkheer. De adellijke titels zijn van laag naar hoog: ridder (komt maar heel weinig voor), baron, graaf, hertog (komt bij ons niet meer voor), prins, koning en keizer.

http://www.nrc.nl/W2/Lab/Profiel/Adel/nedadel.html
Het enige voorrecht van de adel is thans nog het voeren van een adellijke titel of predikaat. In principe kent Nederland de titels prins, hertog, markies, graaf, burggraaf, baron en ridder. De overige adelslieden, de overgrote meerderheid, mogen zich tooien met het predikaat jonkheer of jonkvrouw. Maar in de praktijk staan de zaken er schamel voor: de titel prins wordt tegenwoordig slechts gevoerd door het koninklijk huis, met uitzondering van de (thans Belgische) familie De Riquet de Caraman en de familie De Bourbon de Parme die vorig jaar is ingelijfd. Hertogen en burggraven ontbreken geheel in de noordelijke Nederlanden, terwijl de enige echte markiezen-familie, Van Heusden, altijd Brits is geweest en dus buiten de Nederlandse adel valt.

http://home.hccnet.nl/jb.glasbergen/nbopm.html
Jonkheer is geen beroep maar een predikaat; graaf is een adellijke titel, maar tevens een beroepsnaam indien de drager van die titel als bestuurder van een graafschap optreedt. Dit geldt ook voor vorst, vorstin, hertog, hertogin enz.


--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2002-01-31 08:54:34 (GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

In the translation of a birth certificate, it might be wise to leave it in Dutch with an explanatory footnote. Many countries (esp. republics) don\'t recognise or accept noble titles (or styles for that matter). You could always contact the Dienst Burgerzaken of the gemeente in question for advice. I\'d be surprised if they didn\'t have a fixed procedure for this type of thing.

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Note added at 2002-01-31 10:22:58 (GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Incidental note:
An NL driving licence is valid in the UK until its expiry date. It can also be exchanged for a UK licence without special formalities (http://europa.eu.int/eur-lex/en/lif/dat/1991/en_391L0439.htm... A new provisional licence can be obtained in the UK on production of a passport.

There was a case recently in the UK, where the DVLA (http://www.dvla.gov.uk/) asked an Italian-born man for an English translation of his Italian birth certificate. After his MEP made representations, the DVLA decided to accept the document without a translation. See http://www.ldeg.org/010614gw2.htm for more.



    Reference: http://www.angelfire.com/ne2/wetgeving/nederlands/besluitnaa...
    Reference: http://www.allesopeenrij.nl/lijsten/monarchie/adelijke_titel...
Chris Hopley
Netherlands
Local time: 09:11
Native speaker of: English
PRO pts in pair: 2117
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