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The artist printmaker... a problem of puctuation

English translation: "The artist printmaker who is keen to take (artistic) advantage of the sensitivity of pigments (see the remainder in the answer)

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GLOSSARY ENTRY (DERIVED FROM QUESTION BELOW)
English term or phrase:"The artist printmaker..."
English translation:"The artist printmaker who is keen to take (artistic) advantage of the sensitivity of pigments (see the remainder in the answer)
Entered by: Will Matter
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13:48 Oct 25, 2005
English to English translations [PRO]
Art/Literary - Art, Arts & Crafts, Painting
English term or phrase: The artist printmaker... a problem of puctuation
The sentence is :"The artist printmaker who is keen of exploiting the sensitivity of pigments, should have some knowledge of sizing techniques". The original text is in Japanese, the translation to English was made by somebody else. Now I am translating from English to Italian, but how does the sentence sound to an English native speaker? In particular, is the position of that comma appropriate?
Elena Governo
Local time: 17:34
"The artist printmaker who is keen to take (artistic) advantage of the sensitivity of pigments
Explanation:
should have some knowledge of sizing techniques / the techniques of sizing". Another way to put it: "The artist printmaker who is keen to take full advantage of the possibilities inherent in pigments should have some knowledge of the techniques of sizing". A few extra points that may help: "Artisan printmaker" probably refers the Ukiyo-e artist. Unlike Western printmaking Ukiyo-e prints ARE sized and that sizing alone helps to determine how the final print looks because it has a direct and immediate impact on the color variability (tones, shades, light & dark coloration etc.) of the print itself. So, what you're text is saying is that if the artist wishes to exploit all of the possibilities contained in pigments that they would also be well advised to fully understand how the process of sizing can influence the look of the final product. HTH.

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Note added at 2005-10-26 22:10:00 (GMT) Post-grading
--------------------------------------------------

\"you\'re\" should be \"your\" of course. Sorry!
Selected response from:

Will Matter
United States
Local time: 08:34
Grading comment
4 KudoZ points were awarded for this answer

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Summary of answers provided
4 +6No, the comma is not good as it stands
Tony M
4 +4my view
Rachel Fell
3 +3nfg - I would change "is keen on" to wording below
Elizabeth Lyons
3 +2The comma is OK but there should be another one
Jack Doughty
4"The artist printmaker who is keen to take (artistic) advantage of the sensitivity of pigmentsWill Matter


Discussion entries: 2





  

Answers


3 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 3/5Answerer confidence 3/5 peer agreement (net): +2
the artist printmaker... a problem of puctuation
The comma is OK but there should be another one


Explanation:
Should presumably read:
The artist printmaker, who should be keen on exploiting the sensitivity of pigments, should have some knowledge of sizing techniques.

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Note added at 24 mins (2005-10-25 14:13:10 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

But see also my response to Elizabeth.

Jack Doughty
United Kingdom
Local time: 16:34
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in category: 8

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  Angela Arnone: Hi Jack, OK for the comma, but I don't think "should" used twice is going to stand up - you're changing the meaning of the sentence
1 min
  -> Depends how you look at it. Dusty's reading of it may be right, in which case you are too..

agree  Elizabeth Lyons
13 mins
  -> Thank you.

neutral  Tony M: Please see my own answer for an alternative reading.... // I tried to hide it so I could re-post with a correction, but the system won't allow me to...
14 mins
  -> Thank you. What happened to your answer? Have you hidden it?
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27 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5 peer agreement (net): +6
the artist printmaker... a problem of puctuation
No, the comma is not good as it stands


Explanation:
In fact, the English isn't brilliant, at all!

I think it is meant to meant:

"Artist printmakers who are keen to make the most of pigments need to have some knowledge of sizing."

I've deliberately paraphrased in order to make my interpretation clearer.

'keen of' simply isn't English!

And the sentence shows lots of common te,nde,cies that I find also in my own pair (FR > EN) --- like the use of 'the + singular' where in English a plural without article often reads better (though in this particular instance, that would only be a question of personal preference/ style...)

But the key issue is, should the WHOLE of the "who...pigments" clause be treated as a subordinate clause (in which case it needs a comma at both ends as Jack suggests), or should be treated as qualifying 'artist printmakers' (as I read it), in which case it must not have either comma.

My reading is that the knowledge of sizing is important to any artist printmakers who may have a special interest in colour; I don't think this is necessarily at all the same as Jack's reading, which would suggest that artist printmakers, by definition are concerned about colour, and so need to know about sizing.

But I am quite sure that there are some artist printmakers who are NOT "keen on exploiting pigments"...

It's like the difference between:

"Little boys who climb trees must expect to get hurt" --- my interpretation, implies that not ALL little boys necessarily climb trees...

and:

"Little boys, who are naturally more boisterous than little girls, must be expected to make more noise" --- which implies that all little boys are by nature more boisterous (this is my understanding of Jack's interpretation)






Tony M
France
Local time: 17:34
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in category: 8

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  Jack Doughty: This reading makes sense. I was reading it thinking that it was advertising a vacant position. Since the English is so poor, it seems to me that either reading is possible.
9 mins
  -> Thanks, Jack --- you're very generous! I just feel that 'artist printmaker' is SUCH a broad term, it HAS to be referring only to a subset of them...?

agree  Rachel Fell: I was looking for your ans. after reading Jack's, and must've been writing mine as yours appeared!
12 mins
  -> Thanks, Rachel! I hid it because I wanted to make re-post with a correction, and then unhid it again when I found I couldn't

agree  Can Altinbay: The comma makes perfect sense right there in Japanese. Your paraphrase is correct. The keen of part should be something like "who wants to" or stronger. Just translate it back into Japanese and it all makes sense. :-)
24 mins
  -> Thanks, Can! I don't know anything about Japanese, but it works quite well in FR too!

agree  transparx
1 hr
  -> Thanks, Nino!

agree  Cidália Martins
5 hrs
  -> Thanks, Cidália!

agree  Tania Marques-Cardoso
1 day 44 mins
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20 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 3/5Answerer confidence 3/5 peer agreement (net): +3
the artist printmaker... a problem of puctuation
nfg - I would change "is keen on" to wording below


Explanation:
"The artist printmaker, who **wishes/wants to exploit** the sensitivity of pigments, etc.

This wording is more universal ("keen on" is very British) and stronger, in my opinion. This is just a suggestion. Then translating it to Italian should be simpler, using this wording.

I agree with Jack on the rest, regarding punctuation. : )) HTH

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Note added at 30 mins (2005-10-25 14:19:31 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

This is not for points - I just think it is easier to translate want or wish than keen on, to Italian, but that is up to you!

Elizabeth Lyons
United States
Local time: 08:34
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in category: 2

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  Jack Doughty: But as in my reply to Angela, I would prefer "who should wish/want". In fact, I don't much like "wish/want/is keen on" at all. I think "who should be able to exploit" would be better. I'll leave is as agree since I am mainly disgreeing with myself here
3 mins
  -> Jack, thanks for agreeing - why not turn it to neutral. I wanted to agree with you and add my two cents, not get points here : ))

neutral  Tony M: Elizabeth, please see my own answer for my alternative interpretation...
13 mins
  -> Thanks Dusty, I see your point, absolutely. Good to have these refinements!

agree  Can Altinbay: I agree on this part.
34 mins
  -> Thanks, Can : )

agree  xxxAlfa Trans
1 hr
  -> Thanks, Marju and hi : )
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37 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5 peer agreement (net): +4
the artist printmaker... a problem of puctuation
my view


Explanation:
The artist printmaker who is keen on exploiting the sensitivity of pigments should have some knowledge of sizing techniques.

(no commas)

i.e. as an artist printmaker (or artist/printmaker) you need to know about sizing techniques if you want to exploit the sensitivity of pigments


--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 4 hrs 13 mins (2005-10-25 18:01:42 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

In view of Can's point about strength, below is what I was going to put at first and which is a little "stronger":

The artist printmaker who is keen to exploit the sensitivity of pigments should have some knowledge of sizing techniques.


i.e. Any artist printmaker who wants to find out about using pigments should already have some knowledge of sizing.

Perhaps "subtleties" would be better than "sensitivity", and "explore" rather than "exploit"...?

Rachel Fell
United Kingdom
Local time: 16:34
Works in field
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  Tony M: Yes, exactly the point I was trying to make, only more concisely!
5 mins
  -> Thank you Dusty;)

agree  transparx
1 hr
  -> Thank you ninogulli

agree  airmailrpl: exactly
2 hrs
  -> Thanks airmailpl!

agree  Cidália Martins
5 hrs
  -> Thank you Cidália
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6 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5
"The artist printmaker who is keen to take (artistic) advantage of the sensitivity of pigments


Explanation:
should have some knowledge of sizing techniques / the techniques of sizing". Another way to put it: "The artist printmaker who is keen to take full advantage of the possibilities inherent in pigments should have some knowledge of the techniques of sizing". A few extra points that may help: "Artisan printmaker" probably refers the Ukiyo-e artist. Unlike Western printmaking Ukiyo-e prints ARE sized and that sizing alone helps to determine how the final print looks because it has a direct and immediate impact on the color variability (tones, shades, light & dark coloration etc.) of the print itself. So, what you're text is saying is that if the artist wishes to exploit all of the possibilities contained in pigments that they would also be well advised to fully understand how the process of sizing can influence the look of the final product. HTH.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2005-10-26 22:10:00 (GMT) Post-grading
--------------------------------------------------

\"you\'re\" should be \"your\" of course. Sorry!


    Experience, knowledge of the ukiyo-e production process, familiarity with Japanese art & culture.
Will Matter
United States
Local time: 08:34
Works in field
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in category: 4
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