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Q for people in UKR, RU, POL etc: the notion of "state order"

English translation: Government procurement; government purchasing

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GLOSSARY ENTRY (DERIVED FROM QUESTION BELOW)
English term or phrase:Q for people in UKR, RU, POL etc: the notion of "state order"
English translation:Government procurement; government purchasing
Entered by: Peter Skipp
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15:11 Nov 17, 2008
English to English translations [PRO]
Bus/Financial - Economics
English term or phrase: Q for people in UKR, RU, POL etc: the notion of "state order"
I have already posted this as directed to UKR speakers of EN, but I suspect the term may have originated in formerly socialist/communist countries, and so far, noone has satisfactorily explained the notion.

The original query is copied here. See http://www.proz.com/kudoz/2923208?sp=h

These "order" expressions are confusing me: “state order”, “public order design”. Extracts as follows:

Low quality of the ***state order. The ***state order in higher education is based predominantly on historical patterns. However, some positive changes seem to have taken place in vocational education: ***orders of employers precede the enrolment to vocational and technical schools. The role of the Public Employment Service (PES) in the ***public order design, although still insufficient, is being enhanced. Only recently the PES has started to provide government with the results of labour market monitoring. The government thinks that it would be useful if the PES were involved in the development of labour market forecasts.
(…)
Private fees for education set by individual educational establishments ranged from $400 to $1,500 per year in 2006 excluding living expenses (sometimes exceeding the amount of money paid per student by the government according to the ***state order). Not surprisingly, contract students are heavily concentrated in fields of study such as management, economics and the humanities, which have grown rapidly in recent years to meet the needs of the new market economy.
(…)
To enhance education and training and improve the quality of the labour force by adapting the education system to the needs of employers, improving legislation for the ***state order in education, revising the list of professions obtained as a consequence of studies, developing legislation to involve employers in education, introducing a modern career guidance system, increasing the attractiveness of blue-collar occupations, developing legislation to facilitate on-the-job training and developing and introducing a system of personnel certification, among other measures;
(…)
To develop and implement a national employment programme that will ensure the creation of 1 million jobs annually, facilitate labour market forecasting, promote the creation of new jobs in developing industries, improve ***state order in education, provide for professional retraining and stimulate decentralised financing of skill enhancement for workers;
(…)
To promote employment in rural areas by increasing ***state order for agricultural specialists and by providing them with housing.

TIA:-)
xxxLia Fail
Spain
Local time: 04:09
Government procurement; government purchasing
Explanation:
A similar system and mindset existed in Bulgaria. The government is a large purchaser of goods and services and places procurement orders.

There is a certain amount of confusion between "state", "government" and "cabinet" (or "administration") in both English and Russian as well as, I suspect, Ukrainian. If we take "state" [ru: держава, государство] to mean sovereign organisations of certain territories, "government" [ru: управление, государственный аппарат] to mean the apparatus of administering a state, and "cabinet" [ru: правительство; совет министров] to mean the apparatus of controlling government, then ru: "госзаказ" ("государственный заказ") or literally "state order" becomes "government procurement" or "government purchasing" in the general sense and "government purchase" or, indeed, "government order" in a more specific sense: the system according to which government procures and an item of governmental procurement as part of this system.

In purely British English, while there are no direct governmental purchases of (for instance) educational or healthcare services (and others), there are government "standards" or "benchmarks" which ultimately may mean more or less money for those to whom they apply. There is, of course, "government purchasing" of (for instance) armaments or VIP vehicles, and one may refer to the latter quite simply as "government orders" ("We're late with that government order for armoured limousines!")

I hope this is of help.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2 hrs (2008-11-17 17:20:37 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Here is a link to an example of a typically British "state order". The Decent Homes Standard, while not involving the government in direct purchasing of soundproofing, heat retentive glazing, domestic insulation, improved domestic services, et cetera (that would be too un-British don't you know!) does involve both monetary inducements and monetary penalties for local authorities ("local government") aimed at making social housing friendlier to those who live in it (and who cannot afford the improvements concerned):-

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/HomeAndCommunity/SocialHousingAn...

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2 hrs (2008-11-17 17:25:54 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Here's a more general UK English explanation of government standards. Though the words "purchasing" or related terms are not mentioned (neither does anyone "order" anybody to do anything; that would be awfully un-British), nevertheless the essence of this is that measures deemed desirable by the cabinet are set for implementation:-

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Governmentcitizensandrights/UKgo...

Here, on the other hand, is how UK English deals with government purchasing as contractual arrangement whereby government hands over money for goods and services:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Government-Procurement-Sourcebook-Se...

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0ECZ/is_/ai_n6269067

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2 hrs (2008-11-17 17:32:02 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

FInally, here are suggestions on how your cited text can be made to sound genuinely English:

" Low _government procurement_ quality. Government funding of higher education is based predominantly on historical patterns. However, some positive changes seem to have taken place in vocational education: government _manpower plannning_ precede the enrolment to vocational and technical schools. The role of the Public Employment Service (PES) in the _public procurement policy planning_, although still weak, is growing. Only recently has the PES started to provide government with the results of labour market monitoring. The government thinks it would be useful if the PES were involved in the development of labour market forecasts.
(…)
Private fees for education set by individual educational establishments ranged from $400 to $1,500 per year in 2006 excluding living expenses (sometimes exceeding the amount paid per student by the government under _government funding procedures_). Not surprisingly, contract students are heavily concentrated in fields of study such as management, economics and the humanities, which have grown rapidly in recent years to meet the needs of the new market economy.
(…)
To enhance education and training and improve the quality of the labour force by adapting the education system to the needs of employers, improving legislative provision for _government purchasing_ in education, revising the list of professions obtained as a consequence of studies, developing legislation to involve employers in education, introducing a modern career guidance system, increasing the attractiveness of blue-collar occupations, developing legislation to facilitate on-the-job training and developing and introducing a system of personnel certification, among other measures;
(…)
To develop and implement a national employment programme that will ensure the creation of a million jobs annually, facilitate labour market forecasting, promote the creation of new jobs in developing industries, improve _government purchasing of educational services_, provide for professional retraining and stimulate decentralised financing of skill enhancement for workers;
(…)
To promote employment in rural areas by increasing _government funding_ for agricultural specialists and by providing them with housing.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2 hrs (2008-11-17 17:40:40 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Regarding our note, to me the phrase

" orders of employers precede the enrolment to vocational and technical schools "

seems to refer to a version of what in UK English used to be known as "manpower planning". (I very much doubt it would be called that today... Perhaps, "personnel planning"?)

The idea (long abandoned and discredited in the UK for various reasons, such as that students most often fail to practice in the labour market what they read at universities or colleges) was that govermnent and industry would discuss how many, for instance, language graduates would be needed in X years' time, and government would then "order" (ahem... "suggest" is more British, really...) to academia what number of places to make available for said language specialists, and would then ensure that the provision of these places was duly paid-for.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2 hrs (2008-11-17 17:48:05 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Further to your note, the best rendering into English would read something like...

"_employers'_personnel_needs_planning precedes enrolment to vocational and technical schools"

or, possibly easier to absorb...

"_personnel_requirement_planning_by_employers comes before the enrolment of students into vocational and technical schools"

... meaning that employers first decide how many engineers, technicians and assembly workers they will need in the future and the appropriate number of places in vocational and technical schools are made available for that number of students.
Selected response from:

Peter Skipp
Bulgaria
Local time: 05:09
Grading comment
Thanks to both, but I have to award the points to Peter for his huge help at deciphering "order" instance by instance:-)
4 KudoZ points were awarded for this answer

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Summary of answers provided
5Government procurement; government purchasing
Peter Skipp
1system of government / state system
Jonathan MacKerron


Discussion entries: 3





  

Answers


5 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 1/5Answerer confidence 1/5
q for people in ukr, ru, pol etc: the notion of "state order"
system of government / state system


Explanation:
is my guess, based on the possibility that this is equivalent to the German concept of 'Staatsordnung', but still just a guess

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 6 mins (2008-11-17 15:17:44 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

at second thought, perhaps simply 'public policy'!!

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 16 mins (2008-11-17 15:27:11 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

'state policy' or 'public policy' would make sense for 'state order' all throughout your text

Jonathan MacKerron
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
Login to enter a peer comment (or grade)

2 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 5/5
q for people in ukr, ru, pol etc: the notion of "state order"
Government procurement; government purchasing


Explanation:
A similar system and mindset existed in Bulgaria. The government is a large purchaser of goods and services and places procurement orders.

There is a certain amount of confusion between "state", "government" and "cabinet" (or "administration") in both English and Russian as well as, I suspect, Ukrainian. If we take "state" [ru: держава, государство] to mean sovereign organisations of certain territories, "government" [ru: управление, государственный аппарат] to mean the apparatus of administering a state, and "cabinet" [ru: правительство; совет министров] to mean the apparatus of controlling government, then ru: "госзаказ" ("государственный заказ") or literally "state order" becomes "government procurement" or "government purchasing" in the general sense and "government purchase" or, indeed, "government order" in a more specific sense: the system according to which government procures and an item of governmental procurement as part of this system.

In purely British English, while there are no direct governmental purchases of (for instance) educational or healthcare services (and others), there are government "standards" or "benchmarks" which ultimately may mean more or less money for those to whom they apply. There is, of course, "government purchasing" of (for instance) armaments or VIP vehicles, and one may refer to the latter quite simply as "government orders" ("We're late with that government order for armoured limousines!")

I hope this is of help.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2 hrs (2008-11-17 17:20:37 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Here is a link to an example of a typically British "state order". The Decent Homes Standard, while not involving the government in direct purchasing of soundproofing, heat retentive glazing, domestic insulation, improved domestic services, et cetera (that would be too un-British don't you know!) does involve both monetary inducements and monetary penalties for local authorities ("local government") aimed at making social housing friendlier to those who live in it (and who cannot afford the improvements concerned):-

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/HomeAndCommunity/SocialHousingAn...

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2 hrs (2008-11-17 17:25:54 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Here's a more general UK English explanation of government standards. Though the words "purchasing" or related terms are not mentioned (neither does anyone "order" anybody to do anything; that would be awfully un-British), nevertheless the essence of this is that measures deemed desirable by the cabinet are set for implementation:-

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Governmentcitizensandrights/UKgo...

Here, on the other hand, is how UK English deals with government purchasing as contractual arrangement whereby government hands over money for goods and services:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Government-Procurement-Sourcebook-Se...

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0ECZ/is_/ai_n6269067

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2 hrs (2008-11-17 17:32:02 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

FInally, here are suggestions on how your cited text can be made to sound genuinely English:

" Low _government procurement_ quality. Government funding of higher education is based predominantly on historical patterns. However, some positive changes seem to have taken place in vocational education: government _manpower plannning_ precede the enrolment to vocational and technical schools. The role of the Public Employment Service (PES) in the _public procurement policy planning_, although still weak, is growing. Only recently has the PES started to provide government with the results of labour market monitoring. The government thinks it would be useful if the PES were involved in the development of labour market forecasts.
(…)
Private fees for education set by individual educational establishments ranged from $400 to $1,500 per year in 2006 excluding living expenses (sometimes exceeding the amount paid per student by the government under _government funding procedures_). Not surprisingly, contract students are heavily concentrated in fields of study such as management, economics and the humanities, which have grown rapidly in recent years to meet the needs of the new market economy.
(…)
To enhance education and training and improve the quality of the labour force by adapting the education system to the needs of employers, improving legislative provision for _government purchasing_ in education, revising the list of professions obtained as a consequence of studies, developing legislation to involve employers in education, introducing a modern career guidance system, increasing the attractiveness of blue-collar occupations, developing legislation to facilitate on-the-job training and developing and introducing a system of personnel certification, among other measures;
(…)
To develop and implement a national employment programme that will ensure the creation of a million jobs annually, facilitate labour market forecasting, promote the creation of new jobs in developing industries, improve _government purchasing of educational services_, provide for professional retraining and stimulate decentralised financing of skill enhancement for workers;
(…)
To promote employment in rural areas by increasing _government funding_ for agricultural specialists and by providing them with housing.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2 hrs (2008-11-17 17:40:40 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Regarding our note, to me the phrase

" orders of employers precede the enrolment to vocational and technical schools "

seems to refer to a version of what in UK English used to be known as "manpower planning". (I very much doubt it would be called that today... Perhaps, "personnel planning"?)

The idea (long abandoned and discredited in the UK for various reasons, such as that students most often fail to practice in the labour market what they read at universities or colleges) was that govermnent and industry would discuss how many, for instance, language graduates would be needed in X years' time, and government would then "order" (ahem... "suggest" is more British, really...) to academia what number of places to make available for said language specialists, and would then ensure that the provision of these places was duly paid-for.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2 hrs (2008-11-17 17:48:05 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Further to your note, the best rendering into English would read something like...

"_employers'_personnel_needs_planning precedes enrolment to vocational and technical schools"

or, possibly easier to absorb...

"_personnel_requirement_planning_by_employers comes before the enrolment of students into vocational and technical schools"

... meaning that employers first decide how many engineers, technicians and assembly workers they will need in the future and the appropriate number of places in vocational and technical schools are made available for that number of students.

Peter Skipp
Bulgaria
Local time: 05:09
Works in field
Native speaker of: Native in BulgarianBulgarian, Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in category: 4
Grading comment
Thanks to both, but I have to award the points to Peter for his huge help at deciphering "order" instance by instance:-)
Login to enter a peer comment (or grade)




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Changes made by editors
Nov 26, 2008 - Changes made by Peter Skipp:
Created KOG entryKudoZ term » KOG term


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