maitre d'

English translation: maitre d' (avoiding both plural and direct possessive)

GLOSSARY ENTRY (DERIVED FROM QUESTION BELOW)

English term or phrase:	maitre d'
Selected answer:	maitre d' (avoiding both plural and direct possessive)
Entered by:	B D Finch

08:01 Jan 8, 2014

English language (monolingual) [PRO]
Food & Drink / question about spelling

English term or phrase: maitre d'

If possible, I want to avoid using the complete form (maitre d'hotel - with an accent on the "i"), so - describing the various roles of a maitre d', how should I write the possessive form of the plural - mailtre d's' ? It looks terrible!

ulvaferry KudoZ activity Questions: 80 (none open) (4 without valid answers) Answers: 0
Local time: 21:08

maitre d' (avoiding both plural and direct possessive)

Explanation:
First of all, without any information about how this fits into a sentence, it's rather difficult to advise. However, I suggest that you might consider avoiding both the plural and a surfeit of apostrophes, e.g. "the skills of any maitre d' should include ... ".

Selected response from:

B D Finch
France
Local time: 21:08

Grading comment

2 KudoZ points were awarded for this answer

SUMMARY OF ALL EXPLANATIONS PROVIDED

3 +7

maitre d' (avoiding both plural and direct possessive)

B D Finch

maîtres d’hôtel's

Virginie Mair

3 -1

maitres'

cynthiatesser

Discussion entries: 11

Charles Davis

Spain

10:41 Jan 8, 2014

I agree with others that it would be better to avoid the possessive entirely. The possessive form maîtres d's' may be logically correct but it is extremely awkward, looks like an error, and will simply puzzle the reader. There is always a satisfactory way of rephrasing these things.

One more comment: the form maître d' is in any case primarily American. "Maître d'hôtel" is certainly correct, but a bit formal. Perhaps you could consider "head waiter"?

Charles Davis

Spain

10:32 Jan 8, 2014

The plural of maître d' is undoubtedly maître d's. It is a rare case in which a plural ending in apostrophe-s is correct. It may actually be unique; I don't know whether there are any other nouns in English that end with an apostrophe. This apostrophe signifies contraction, not possession; it is effectively a letter. There is no argument for removing it in forming the plural. Dictionaries and style manuals seem to be unanimous on this, and it is logically unassailable. The trouble is that it looks wrong, because plurals in apostrophe-s are quite commonly used and apart from this exceptional case they always are wrong.

Tony M

France

@ Asker

09:09 Jan 8, 2014

There is no problem whatsoever using 'maître d'hôtel' in a restaurant context — no-one will be confused, it is a perfectly standard term; in fact, not many hotels would have a 'maître d'hôtel' unless they had a restaurant!

But as BDf has said, the best thing would be to re-phrase slightly to avoid needing the possessive at all; you don't unfortunately give us the full sentence, but I'm willing to bet that the use of the possessive here would actually sound awkward anyway. Please give us the full sentence so we can help you better.

ulvaferry

ASKER

Apostrophe

08:54 Jan 8, 2014

Tom in London confirms the apostrophe rule I remembered, but the indication of the plural of maitre d' as maitre d's is on several apprarently reliable Web sites...

writeaway

Check this out

08:53 Jan 8, 2014

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/maître d'

Lara Barnett

United Kingdom

@ ulvaferry

08:52 Jan 8, 2014

I realise this, but I was interested in how the word fits into the structure of the sentence. This may affect choice of word.

writeaway

But since the question is about English

08:51 Jan 8, 2014

spelling, I shifted this to English monolingual since maybe native English speakers can help. Otherwise suggest checking on Google.

ulvaferry

ASKER

Maitre context

08:50 Jan 8, 2014

The context is a description of the various skills a truly qualified maitre must have...

ulvaferry

ASKER

08:47 Jan 8, 2014

I'm translating from Italian, where maitre is used on its own, which is why I posted as ITA->ENG The maitres in question work in both hotels and restaurants, so (to avoid confusing non-native speakers) I don't want to write the English maitre d'hotel in full...

writeaway

Shouldn't this be a question for

08:28 Jan 8, 2014

English monolingual?

Lara Barnett

United Kingdom

@ Ulvaferry

08:20 Jan 8, 2014

Can you show the context please?

Answers

36 mins confidence:

maîtres d’hôtel's

Explanation:
"The plural of maître d'hôtel is ."
"Forming the possessive case of compound words: for compound words, make the last word in the group possessive. ex: The secretary of state’s speech was televised."
That is if you insist on having this compact possessive structure. But really, I would highly recommend you turn your sentence around so you can have something like: "Duties of maîtres d'hôtels typically include..."

Reference: http://teachersites.schoolworld.com/webpages/DLoput/files/ap...
Reference: http://www.grammarphobia.com/blog/2007/01/whats-the-plural-o...

Virginie Mair
Switzerland
Local time: 21:08
Native speaker of:

French,

English

4 mins confidence:

peer agreement (net): -1

maitres'

Explanation:
leave the "d'" out

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 5 mins (2014-01-08 08:07:03 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Of course, the "i" has a circumflex accent

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 50 mins (2014-01-08 08:52:18 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

if you want to write"d'", then I would look for a way to avoid using the possessive "s" (using "of, belonging to, relevant to, concerning, pertaining to, etc." instead)

cynthiatesser
Italy
Local time: 21:08
Specializes in field
Native speaker of: Italian

Notes to answerer

Asker: Although maitre is used on its own in Italian, it would seem that the correct GB ENG qualification is maitre d'hotel or (more commonly) maitre d'....

1 hr confidence:

peer agreement (net): +7

maitre d' (avoiding both plural and direct possessive)

B D Finch
France
Local time: 21:08
Native speaker of: English
PRO pts in category: 10

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)

agree

Tony M: Absolutely! As you say, we do need to see the whole sentence; but I strongly suspect that the use of the possessive would in any case sound awkward here...

5 mins

-> Thanks Tony.

agree

Carol Gullidge: exactly! Indeed, as used by the Asker in the Discussion above: "the various skills a truly qualified maitre must have."

45 mins

-> Thanks Carol

agree

Charles Davis: Excellent advice: just don't go down that road at all; find a detour.

1 hr

-> Thanks Charles. Wriggling skills are essential for all good translators.

agree

Sheila Wilson: As the asker has specified GB ENG then perhaps the term is better replaced by head waiter in any case, although I would still avoid a plural possessive.

2 hrs

-> Thanks Sheila. Yes, "head waiter" could be an option, though it's a bit less grand.

agree

Ashutosh Mitra

4 hrs

-> Thanks Ashutosh

agree

Yvonne Gallagher: a maitre d' is not a "head waiter", as SW says above, imo

8 hrs

-> Thanks Gallagy

agree

Tina Vonhof (X): and without any accents.

13 hrs

-> Thanks Tina. Yes.

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