Nov 20, 2004 18:44
20 yrs ago
English term

"She hate me"

Non-PRO English Other General / Conversation / Greetings / Letters
"She hate me" is the title of US director Spike Lee's latest movie. I have to write a comment on this movie for an website dedicated to cinema. I am wondering why there is no "s" on "hate". Could somebody explain me this ?
Thank you very much in advance.

Discussion

Melanie Nassar Nov 20, 2004:
It actually IS very simple -- this is an example of an African-American speech pattern, no matter what you call it, and without prejudice, and this particular sentence was probably inspired by the title that Yolanta mentioned.
Non-ProZ.com (asker) Nov 20, 2004:
Yes, I read the whole discussion and found it very interesting. For me, I was a very simple question and it appeared to be more complicated than what I thought !
Melanie Nassar Nov 20, 2004:
You are very patient if you read the whole discussion below.
Non-ProZ.com (asker) Nov 20, 2004:
Thank you all for your answers. I thought I was asking a very simple question and I did not know it could be lead to a "controversy" that divides English native speakers. I have read all your answers and your different positions. It is hard for me to make a choice because I am not an English native speaker, actually I am French. I will do some research based on the elements you have all provided to me and get back to you later. Once more, thank you very much.

Responses

+4
15 mins
English term (edited): uninflected present tense verbs
Selected

grammatical characteristic of ebonics

Present tense verbs are uninflected for person: there is no -s ending in the present tense third person singular. Example: She write poetry (="She writes poetry")

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Note added at 22 mins (2004-11-20 19:06:40 GMT)
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http://www.worldhistory.com/wiki/E/Ebonics.htm
Peer comment(s):

agree sarahl (X)
3 mins
Thanks, Sarah
disagree Richard Benham : [...]//The term has wandered from its original intention. The question of dialect with different grammar vs ignorant errors is political, not linguistic. I have taken no position on it, despite your cheap rhetoric.//Correction? Is this a joke?
16 mins
And yet the word was invented by black researchers. You can call the speech patterns what you wish; the fact remains that they are not careless errors as some appear to believe.//Your extreme reaction to correction is way out of line.
agree Annika Neudecker
22 mins
Thanks, Annika
agree Catherine Bolton : Have to agree with Ruth on the term Ebonics (which I have usually seen with a capital "E"). I don't have enough space here so I'll post info on Ebonics as a response.
3 hrs
Thanks, CB
agree Margaret Schroeder : Tina: Don't miss this essay http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/000937.h... A (not Black) linguist talks about Ebonics.
6 hrs
Thank you, GoodWords
agree Heidi Stone-Schaller : IMO, the line between political vs. linguistic issues is not as clear as Richard makes it out to be, neither should this be irrelevant to the asker.
18 hrs
Thank you, Heidrun; in my belief it has only been made political by the racist crowd
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4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer. Comment: "Thank you very much to all of you for your answers. It is very difficult to choose an answer. I wish I could share the points."
-1
5 mins

slang

I guess it's African American dialect, often the s is dropped or the verbs are conjugated incorrectly.
Peer comment(s):

disagree Refugio : It is not slang, it is a different grammatical structure. Please don't guess.
12 mins
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+2
9 mins
English term (edited): She hate me

from watching "X.F.L

Spike Lee came up with the title from watching "X.F.L." (2001). A player named Rod Smart gained some notoriety by nicknaming himself "He Hate Me".

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Note added at 9 mins (2004-11-20 18:54:16 GMT)
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http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0384533/trivia
Peer comment(s):

agree Aisha Maniar : you're quite right!
9 mins
thanks Aisha
neutral Refugio : This is very likely true, but I think the asker is looking for the grammatical explanation.
10 mins
agree tappi_k : and I disagree with Ruth - the asker doesn't say anywhere that she's looking for the 'grammatical explanation' - the question refers to this particular title by Spike Lee, and Yolanta gives a good answer..
8 hrs
thank you!
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+4
5 mins
English term (edited): She hate me.

It's "African-American" slang.

Don't worry about it. It's how they talk.

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Note added at 1 hr 30 mins (2004-11-20 20:14:56 GMT)
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I am copping a lot of flak over the word \"slang\". I was using the word in its colloquial sense, and indeed using it quite correctly in this sense.

Despite certain pusillanimous and pig-ignorant insinuations, I have not taken a position about whether this is \"erroneous\" standard English or \"grammatically correct\" dialect. To take a position on this question would involve making a political choice. I am aware of the arguments for and against, but I do not see that I should involve myself in a dispute within another culture and another country. Parallel questions arise in Australia about \"Aboriginal English\". I refuse to become involved in that issue too.

Returning to the question, it is clear that the two disagreers to my answer so far have done so on political rather than linguistic grounds. Ruth\'s answer does not differ materially from mine, except that she commits herself to the existence of a separate dialect called \"ebonics\" (although the level of this commitment has to be questioned when she fails to capitalize it--are there any other dialect names that are not capitalized?). The actual linguistic content--that it is common for black Americans to use uninflected verbs in the 3rd-person present singular indicative, is the same. So why the disagree?
Peer comment(s):

disagree Refugio : It is not slang, it is a different grammatical structure. There are good reasons why "it's how they talk." You should read up on Ebonics and avoid insults like "pig-ignorant".
11 mins
You have a point, but only a very pedantic one. I am aware of ebonics, and also that a lot of black Americans dislike the term, finding it patronizing, and so I avoided opening that can of worms.
disagree Annika Neudecker : Richard, I think you're generalizing a bit here by saying, "It's how they talk." It's not slang and I'd like to point out that not all African Americans talk like that.
28 mins
I never said that all "African Americans" talk like that. Whether or not you call it slang is an irrelevant terminological issue. The fact is that a significant proportion of black Americans do not add an "s" in the 3rd-person present indicative singular.
agree Melanie Nassar
1 hr
Thanks.
agree Ulrike Lieder (X)
1 hr
Thanks.
agree Java Cafe
2 hrs
Thanks.
agree Derek Gill Franßen : See: http://marthabee.com/spogg/content/august2004blog.htm ;-)
2 hrs
Thanks.
agree Edith Kelly
2 hrs
Thanks.
agree Andy Watkinson : "Slang" by any other name, would be called "Ebonics"
4 hrs
My point. Or in other words, "slang" is often used informally for what is technically a non-standard dialect.
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-1
54 mins
English term (edited): She hate me

This is urban talk

You mostly hear this around African-Americans in certain urban areas.

This is like when you hear people say, "My baby daddy". It is not grammatically correct but it is used among this certain demographic

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Note added at 1 hr 31 mins (2004-11-20 20:15:50 GMT)
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Ruth made it a point to disagree about the origin of where it is used. YES you hear it in the rural areas but in recent years it has been popularized by rappers, actors, etc. who have predominantly been from URBAN areas. I never said it didn\'t happen in the rural areas. I said \" in certain urban areas\" which means it CAN happen elsewhere.

It is a new trend among this demographic to talk like this.

And as Yolanta said it came from the XFL which if you look into the player\'s background you will find he came from Lakeland, Florida which is not far from Tampa. Tampa has a high African American demographic and a major market of 200k.

So I was not totally off!

okay, i am off the soap box now....
Peer comment(s):

disagree Refugio : The non-use of the possessive 's' is equally prevalent in urban and rural areas.
8 mins
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+5
3 hrs
English term (edited): RE Ruth's answer:

more info about Ebonics

I'm simply posting this in support of Ruth's comments on Ebonics because there is not enough room as a peer comment. Hence, it is not meant as an answer per se.
This is a fascinating area of linguistics. This is from the site listed below - Oakland (California) Board of Education.

Whereas there has been a great deal of discussion in the media and among the American public about the l8 December l996 decision of the Oakland School Board to recognize the language variety spoken by many African American students and to take it into account in teaching Standard English, the Linguistic Society of America, as a society of scholars engaged in the scientific study of language, hereby resolves to make it known that:

The variety known as "Ebonics," "African American Vernacular English" (AAVE), and "Vernacular Black English" and by other names is systematic and rule-governed like all natural speech varieties. In fact, all human linguistic systems -- spoken, signed, and written -- are fundamentally regular. The systematic and expressive nature of the grammar and pronunciation patterns of the African American vernacular has been established by numerous scientific studies over the past thirty years. Characterizations of Ebonics as "slang," "mutant," "lazy," "defective," "ungrammatical," or "broken English" are incorrect and demeaning.

The distinction between "languages" and "dialects" is usually made more on social and political grounds than on purely linguistic ones. For example, different varieties of Chinese are popularly regarded as "dialects," though their speakers cannot understand each other, but speakers of Swedish and Norwegian, which are regarded as separate "languages," generally understand each other. What is important from a linguistic and educational point of view is not whether AAVE is called a "language" or a "dialect" but rather that its systematicity be recognized.

As affirmed in the LSA Statement of Language Rights (June l996), there are individual and group benefits to maintaining vernacular speech varieties and there are scientific and human advantages to linguistic diversity. For those living in the United States there are also benefits in acquiring Standard English and resources should be made available to all who aspire to mastery of Standard English. The Oakland School Board's commitment to helping students master Standard English is commendable.

There is evidence from Sweden, the US, and other countries that speakers of other varieties can be aided in their learning of the standard variety by pedagogical approaches which recognize the legitimacy of the other varieties of a language. From this perspective, the Oakland School Board's decision to recognize the vernacular of African American students in teaching them Standard English is linguistically and pedagogically sound.
Peer comment(s):

agree Refugio : As a bilingual teacher in California, I certainly agree. We studied Ebonics at length in credential courses, and it is perhaps too complex a subject to summarize here. Those who are interested will find the research rewarding.
9 mins
Hi Ruth! You might want to post more links about Ebonics under your answer. It really is a fascinating field and there are lots of reputable ".edu" sites discussing it.
agree Margaret Schroeder : So true. "The distinction between 'languages' and 'dialects' is usually made more on social and political grounds than on purely linguistic ones."
3 hrs
agree Giulia Barontini
4 hrs
agree wordsandmore
6 hrs
neutral Prisma : I'm sorry to stoke the fire on this one but Swedish and Norwegian ARE different languages, not "languages".
9 hrs
The article says they ARE languages! I think you're missing the point.
agree Heidi Stone-Schaller : Perhaps it's important to note that most speakers of Ebonics are bilingual in the sense that they also speak Standard American English, which goes to show that it has nothing to do with a lack of education or anything like that (as is often assumed).
15 hrs
Very good point!
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+1
10 hrs
English term (edited): she hate me

she hate me

it is just plain and simple Ebonics. it's just a dialect, way to talk, whatever you wanna call it. it is even taught in schools someplace in CA where it is recognized as an actual language.
Peer comment(s):

agree lidia ausbrook : interpreters I work with were even sugesting to implement Ebonics as one of the working languages in my city (big ) court rooms
9 mins
neutral Refugio : "someplace"? "actual"? I take it you don't have too much contact with its speakers. Probably you have heard the code-switching version (back and forth between AAVE and Standard English.
11 hrs
first of all don't guess on things you don't know about! "with its speakers"? "code-switching versoin"? what are you talking about? i thought you said not to guess!
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