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"I" or "Me"?

English translation: me

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21:23 Jan 26, 2004
English to English translations [PRO]
English term or phrase: "I" or "Me"?
Also „Me”?


Photo description:

"From left to right: Husband, Aunt, Father, I/Me, X, Y, Z."
Barbara Piela
Local time: 05:15
English translation:me
Explanation:
Before you become completely blinded by non-native science of the English language, please read the following.

In your ginven context:-

Full text: - Christmas Eve, Poland 2001
From left to right: Katarzyna Klimczewska (sister-in-law), me, Tomasz Dabrowki (Eliza Dabrowska’s husband), Eliza Dabrowksa (cousin), Iwona Dabrowska (cousin).

You could use "myself" at a pinch, but it's too "business-ish" for a family photo.

Explanation: there isn't one- it just is so- English is like that sometimes.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 10 hrs 7 mins (2004-01-27 07:31:43 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Oops! ginven= given

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 11 hrs 49 mins (2004-01-27 09:12:54 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Note for Fuad:

You wrote in your answer:
\"I did not suggest that Barbara adopt either one of the two examples.\"

What were the axamples for then? The asker has given clear context in her added notes, you have given an answer, how can you say it is unfounded for me to assume you were not offering your theorising for adoption?
Or are you saying now, that the examples should perhaps not be adopted because they may be flawed (which the first one definitely is IMHO)


--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 11 hrs 49 mins (2004-01-27 09:13:31 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Note for Fuad:

You wrote in your answer:
\"I did not suggest that Barbara adopt either one of the two examples.\"

What were the axamples for then? The asker has given clear context in her added notes, you have given an answer, how can you say it is unfounded for me to assume you were not offering your theorising for adoption?
Or are you saying now, that the examples should perhaps not be adopted because they may be flawed (which the first one definitely is IMHO)


--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 day 20 hrs 9 mins (2004-01-28 17:33:45 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

A note for the language scientists among you:

\"That\'s me in the picture, methinks.\" Any analytical toughts anyone??

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2 days 9 hrs 34 mins (2004-01-29 06:57:53 GMT) Post-grading
--------------------------------------------------

Final note to Fuad Yahya:
People of a far higher intellectual standing than yourself have been abused, warned, suspended from Kudos, for infinitely less than the likes of your childish and abusive comments on this question.

Not least among those people is DR. WILLIAM STEIN.

Normally, I would not indulge in this kind of time wasting exchange, but I notice you are a MODERATOR.In the light of recent developments on Kudos, this makes you no better than a corrupt policeman in my book.
Selected response from:

Gareth McMillan
Local time: 05:15
Grading comment
I think this explanation is the most reasonable (and without any "disagrees" :-)).
Thanks to all of you!

4 KudoZ points were awarded for this answer



Summary of answers provided
4 +9either
ntext
4 +4me
Gareth McMillan
5 +2Myself
Attila Piróth
5Barbara
Fuad Yahya
5 -1and I
luzba
4 -1Same answer as before
Lars Helbig
4 -2in support of "and I"
nrabate


Discussion entries: 4





  

Answers


2 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5 peer agreement (net): +9
either


Explanation:
... but if this is a personal photo album or something like that, most people would write "me" here.

ntext
United States
Local time: 22:15
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish, Native in GermanGerman
PRO pts in pair: 379

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  Steffen Pollex: "me", definitely, with no further context
52 mins

agree  Iolanta Vlaykova Paneva
1 hr

agree  Will Matter: me. Speakers of English that refer to themselves use "me"
1 hr

agree  jerrie
1 hr

agree  Refugio
1 hr

agree  Nado2002
2 hrs

agree  Jörgen Slet
4 hrs

agree  Patricia Baldwin
5 hrs

agree  chica nueva: If you were speaking to someone you would say 'This is me here'. See,this is me, when I was 10....
6 hrs

agree  Todd Field: "me" ... without a doubt
7 hrs

disagree  Gareth McMillan: "I" just doesn't work here (see asker's notes). So not either.
9 hrs

disagree  Ildiko Santana: Agree with Gareth.
9 hrs

agree  Gordon Darroch: "me" sounds much more natural, though
12 hrs
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5 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 5/5 peer agreement (net): -1
and I


Explanation:
Grammatically correct

luzba
Native speaker of: Native in SpanishSpanish

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
disagree  Will Matter: please respell several words in your CV.
1 hr

agree  nrabate: please go to http://www.wsu.edu/~brians/errors/myself.html
1 hr

neutral  Lars Helbig: How can say what would be correct when you only have fragment?
1 hr

agree  Elenacb
1 hr

disagree  Refugio: In the first place, you don't know whether it is grammatically correct if it is not part of a sentence. In the second place, it would sound stilted and uncommon.
1 hr

agree  Patricia Baldwin: If the verb is understood i.e.are sitting/standing... me" object pronoun is incorrect whereas "I"subject pronoun is perfect.
5 hrs

disagree  Gareth McMillan: See asker's note- "and I" only works at the end of a sentence.In this case it appears in the middle of a list- so "me". English is full of grammatical contradictions- and they are "correct".
9 hrs

disagree  Ildiko Santana: Again, agree with Gareth.
9 hrs
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59 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5 peer agreement (net): -1
Same answer as before


Explanation:
As I already said in the other question. It depends on what you would write, if it was just you in the picture. If the picture was only of you, would you write 'Me' or 'I' underneath it. I think that 'Me' is more likely as it can more easily be made into a full sentence, but only you really know what you mean with the label.

Lars Helbig
Germany
Local time: 05:15
Native speaker of: Native in GermanGerman
PRO pts in pair: 55

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
disagree  Gareth McMillan: Please see my answer and comments.
9 hrs
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1 hr   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5 peer agreement (net): -2
in support of "and I"


Explanation:
In the old days when people studied traditional grammar, we could simply say, "The first person singular pronoun is 'I' when it's a subject and 'me' when it's an object," but now few people know what that means. Let's see if we can apply some common sense here. The misuse of "I" and "myself" for "me" is caused by nervousness about "me." Educated people know that "Jim and me is goin' down to slop the hogs," is not elegant speech, not "correct." It should be "Jim and I" because if I were slopping the hogs alone I would never say "Me is going . . ." So far so good. But the notion that there is something wrong with "me" leads people to overcorrect and avoid it where it is perfectly appropriate. People will say "The document had to be signed by both Susan and I" when the correct statement would be, "The document had to be signed by both Susan and me." Trying even harder to avoid the lowly "me," many people will substitute "myself," as in "The suspect uttered epithets at Officer O'Leary and myself." "Myself" is no better than "I" as an object. "Myself" is not a sort of all-purpose intensive form of "me" or "I." Use "myself" only when you have used "I" earlier in the same sentence: "I am not particularly fond of goat cheese myself." "I kept half the loot for myself." All this confusion can easily be avoided if you just remove the second party from the sentences where you feel tempted to use "myself" as an object or feel nervous about "me." You wouldn't say, "The IRS sent the refund check to I," so you shouldn't say "The IRS sent the refund check to my wife and I" either. And you shouldn't say "to my wife and myself." The only correct way to say this is, "The IRS sent the refund check to my wife and me." Still sounds too casual? Get over it.



nrabate
United States
Local time: 23:15
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in pair: 8

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
neutral  nyamuk: Are you arguing in support of "and I" or "and me" ?
37 mins
  -> Educated people know that "Jim and me is goin' down to slop the hogs," is not elegant speech, not "correct." It should be "Jim and I" because if I were slopping the hogs alone I would never say "Me is going . . ."

neutral  Will Matter: yeah, kind of hard to tell, isn't it?
1 hr
  -> Educated people know that "Jim and me is goin' down to slop the hogs," is not elegant speech, not "correct." It should be "Jim and I" because if I were slopping the hogs alone I would never say "Me is going . . ."

neutral  Chris Rowson: This has nothing to do with "goin´ down to slop the hogs", it´s a photo description. If grammar says "me" is wrong then grammar is wrong.
8 hrs

neutral  Gareth McMillan: I find the above mini novel may create confusion for the asker. As a native speaker, I am not clear myself what point you're trying to make.
8 hrs

disagree  Gordon Darroch: just answer the question
10 hrs

disagree  Textklick: Wonderful stuff, but your "and I" requires that the photo be reshot, methinks. Of course Photoshop is always an option.
1 day 19 hrs
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2 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 5/5 peer agreement (net): +2
Myself


Explanation:
A clear-cut option.

Attila Piróth
France
Local time: 05:15
Native speaker of: Native in HungarianHungarian
PRO pts in pair: 184

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
neutral  Gareth McMillan: IMO not wrong- but sounds too over cooked for a family website.
7 hrs

agree  Ildiko Santana: Yeah, either the name or 'myself'. Definitely I or me, IMHO.. ;)
7 hrs

agree  Textklick: Photo shows (l. to r.) Mr. Text, Mrs. Text and myself. Think also about verb agreement. Anyone who claims otherwise is disturbed IMVHO ;-) http://www.meltingblog.org/
1 day 18 hrs
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2 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 5/5
Barbara


Explanation:
In order to assign a grammatical case to the pronoun in question, you need more material to work with than just a list of names. It does not have to be a full sentence, but just enough to delineate some identifiable structure. For example:

From left to right: Husband, Aunt, Father, I, and Sr. Jane are standing before the baptistry of St. Joseph Basilica.

Philip Johnson's famous "Waterwall," with Husband, Aunt, Father, me, and Sr. Jane in the foreground.

Without something like that, you can use either "I" or "me." You cannot be faulted because there is no determining structure.

From a purely practical standpoint, it is sometimes better to use your name instead of a pronoun because the pronoun would unmistakably refer to you only if the reader of the description knows it as issuing from you. Think of the future. The picture may end up in the possession or readership of someone else 50 or 100 years from now. It may be better to indentify who the I/me of the picture is by name. Just something to think about.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2004-01-27 07:48:30 (GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

It appears from Gareth McMillan\'s note below that my comments above may have given some the impression that I was recommending either one of the two hypothetical examples I cited. That impression in unfounded. Nowhere did I suggest that. I only said that IF the photo description were written in a manner that explicitly assigned a grammatical case (as in either of the two hypothetical examples), THEN one would be justified in being strict about \"I\" vs. \"me.\" But if all we had was a list, then one could balemelessly use either \"I\" or \"me\" because there would be no determining structure. I did not suggest that Barbara adopt either one of the two examples.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2004-01-29 05:25:01 (GMT) Post-grading
--------------------------------------------------

Gareth McMillan (below) expresses failure to understand that hypothetical examples are sometimes constructed to illustrate a point, not necessarily to suggest an alternative wording. Since this is an uncommon failure, there is no need to belabor this point. It just is so.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2004-01-29 07:36:28 (GMT) Post-grading
--------------------------------------------------

Final note to Gareth McMillan:

You wrote (below), \"It is a hallmark of the incompetent to resort to personal attack.\"

Thank you for explaining your behavior toward me.

Fuad Yahya
Native speaker of: Native in ArabicArabic, Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in pair: 893

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
disagree  Gareth McMillan: IMHO your first example for the use of "I" doesn't read, should be "Aunt, Father, Sr. Jane and I, standing "in front of". You can't assign a grammatical case here. It just is so.
7 hrs
  -> We can assign a grammatical case, whether we use the copula or not, because we know who is doing the standing, even if the verb is not explicitly stated.

agree  Ildiko Santana: I was about to post my2 cents, "Barbara OR myself".. I fully support what you had to say in your last paragraph.
7 hrs
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10 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5 peer agreement (net): +4
me


Explanation:
Before you become completely blinded by non-native science of the English language, please read the following.

In your ginven context:-

Full text: - Christmas Eve, Poland 2001
From left to right: Katarzyna Klimczewska (sister-in-law), me, Tomasz Dabrowki (Eliza Dabrowska’s husband), Eliza Dabrowksa (cousin), Iwona Dabrowska (cousin).

You could use "myself" at a pinch, but it's too "business-ish" for a family photo.

Explanation: there isn't one- it just is so- English is like that sometimes.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 10 hrs 7 mins (2004-01-27 07:31:43 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Oops! ginven= given

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 11 hrs 49 mins (2004-01-27 09:12:54 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Note for Fuad:

You wrote in your answer:
\"I did not suggest that Barbara adopt either one of the two examples.\"

What were the axamples for then? The asker has given clear context in her added notes, you have given an answer, how can you say it is unfounded for me to assume you were not offering your theorising for adoption?
Or are you saying now, that the examples should perhaps not be adopted because they may be flawed (which the first one definitely is IMHO)


--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 11 hrs 49 mins (2004-01-27 09:13:31 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Note for Fuad:

You wrote in your answer:
\"I did not suggest that Barbara adopt either one of the two examples.\"

What were the axamples for then? The asker has given clear context in her added notes, you have given an answer, how can you say it is unfounded for me to assume you were not offering your theorising for adoption?
Or are you saying now, that the examples should perhaps not be adopted because they may be flawed (which the first one definitely is IMHO)


--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 day 20 hrs 9 mins (2004-01-28 17:33:45 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

A note for the language scientists among you:

\"That\'s me in the picture, methinks.\" Any analytical toughts anyone??

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2 days 9 hrs 34 mins (2004-01-29 06:57:53 GMT) Post-grading
--------------------------------------------------

Final note to Fuad Yahya:
People of a far higher intellectual standing than yourself have been abused, warned, suspended from Kudos, for infinitely less than the likes of your childish and abusive comments on this question.

Not least among those people is DR. WILLIAM STEIN.

Normally, I would not indulge in this kind of time wasting exchange, but I notice you are a MODERATOR.In the light of recent developments on Kudos, this makes you no better than a corrupt policeman in my book.

Gareth McMillan
Local time: 05:15
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in pair: 63
Grading comment
I think this explanation is the most reasonable (and without any "disagrees" :-)).
Thanks to all of you!

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  cologne: definitely agree
1 hr
  -> Thank you, Jane

agree  John Bowden: Agree. People forget (or don't know) that English, like French, has an "emphatic accusative", so it's correct to say "It's me" (c.f. French "c'est moi", and "it is I" is a n 18th-century over-correction based on Latin grammar.
4 hrs
  -> Best explanation on the board so far IMO.

agree  Chris Rowson
7 hrs
  -> Thanks Chris.

agree  MatthewS
1 day 8 hrs
  -> Thanks, eh...Matt?

agree  jerrie: Absolutely.
1 day 11 hrs
  -> Thank you ,Gunther.

disagree  Fuad Yahya: If you can't see how examples are often constructed to illustrate a point without being prescriptive, even after reading my thorough explanation, then, IMHO, your blind spot must be quite native. It probably can't be helped.
1 day 21 hrs
  -> IMO It is a hallmark of the incompetent to resort to personal attack when their fatuous arguments fail to impress.
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