is of/on the order of

English translation: of the order of (UK English); either (US English)

GLOSSARY ENTRY (DERIVED FROM QUESTION BELOW)
English term or phrase:is of/on the order of
Selected answer:of the order of (UK English); either (US English)
Entered by: Jack Doughty

11:56 Sep 28, 2006
English language (monolingual) [PRO]
Science - Science (general) / scientific writing
English term or phrase: is of/on the order of
Dear native speakers!
Could you explain the difference, if any, between "to be OF the order of" and " to be ON the order of"?

Example from Google:
The coefficient of friction is ON the order of 10, whereas that for rocks is OF the order of 0.5.
Nik-On/Off
Ukraine
Local time: 10:35
of the order of
Explanation:
I think "on the order of" must be an error, and it should be "of the order of" in both cases.
Selected response from:

Jack Doughty
United Kingdom
Local time: 08:35
Grading comment
I'm not that happy with the necessity of grading just one answer here because it is the entire discussion that is very helpfull to me.
I'd like to say thanks to everyone participated!
4 KudoZ points were awarded for this answer



SUMMARY OF ALL EXPLANATIONS PROVIDED
2 +8of the order of
Jack Doughty
5 +2no difference
Attila Piróth
4 +1'of', 'on', or 'in' - it's just better to use the same preposiiton in both cases
Alexander Demyanov
4to the order of OR of the order of
Ramesh Madhavan
4OF the order is more precise
sergey (X)


Discussion entries: 8





  

Answers


2 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 2/5Answerer confidence 2/5 peer agreement (net): +8
of the order of


Explanation:
I think "on the order of" must be an error, and it should be "of the order of" in both cases.

Jack Doughty
United Kingdom
Local time: 08:35
Native speaker of: English
PRO pts in category: 52
Grading comment
I'm not that happy with the necessity of grading just one answer here because it is the entire discussion that is very helpfull to me.
I'd like to say thanks to everyone participated!

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  Helen Genevier
0 min
  -> Thank you.

agree  Rachel Fell: "of the order of" is correct for the UK, anyway, and is logical; "on the order of" sounds incorrect to me\\Hm, to Vitaly, not in my neck of the woods or amongst the literate physicists I know;-)
7 mins
  -> Thank you.

agree  Maureen Wilkins (X)
8 mins
  -> Thank you.

disagree  Brie Vernier: Sorry, Jack, but "on" is definitely NOT an error: http://m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?va=on the order of on the order of: 2 : ABOUT, APPROXIMATELY //"in the order of" indicates a sequence, unless "Order" is cap'd
15 mins
  -> In this particular context I don't see how one can be "of" and the other "on". I have not come across "on", but it seems it is used in US English. IN the order of sounds better than "on" to me.

agree  David Moore (X): and with Rachel
1 hr
  -> Thank you.

agree  Romanian Translator (X)
1 hr
  -> Thank you.

agree  maryrose: and with Rachel. AAMOI, I googled "on the order of" and got not one instance of that string of words together, but of course I accept what speakers of US English say! "As a matter of interest"!
1 hr
  -> Thank you. What is AAMOI?

agree  Dr. Andrew Frankland: You certainly wouldn't find "on the order of" amongst many chemists, and as an editor I would change it every time, US English speaker or not.
2 hrs
  -> Thank you.

agree  Peter Shortall
2 hrs
  -> Thank you.

neutral  Ken Cox: With Brie: in common US usage (even among educated people) 'on the order of' means 'approximately'. If you specifically mean 'having a order of magnitude of', then I agree that 'of the order of' is at least preferable, but it is rare in general US usage.
10 hrs

agree  Alfa Trans (X)
9 days
  -> Thank you.
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4 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 5/5 peer agreement (net): +2
no difference


Explanation:
Both are widely used.
Ashcroft-Mermin's Solid State Physics uses predominantly "on the order of", but "of the order of" is perfectly fine, too.
In "on the order of" there is just one "of"; it might sometimes be useful. E.g., in "N is of the order of the number of degrees of freedom of the system of electrons" there are a bit too many ofs - you can reduce it by one by using "on the order of".

Attila Piróth
France
Local time: 09:35
Works in field
Native speaker of: Native in HungarianHungarian
PRO pts in category: 4

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  Ken Cox: this may be a UK/US thing; I'm accustomed to 'on the order of'. In any case, IMO it's bad style to mix the two forms (as in the asker's example), since this creates the false impression that there is a difference in meaning.
6 mins
  -> Yes, the two should not be mixed. As for US/UK: I don't know; the Guardian as well as the Encyclopaedia Britannica website seem to have quite a few examples for "on the order of".

disagree  David Moore (X): As an ENS, "on" in this context is wrong - the words "on" and "of" have different meanings. And if Kenneth is "used to" "on the order of" in this context, shame on those chemists in the USA using it (scientists are seldom the best of linguists anyway!)...
1 hr
  -> Thanks for pointing out that "on" is not used in BE. However, it is very common e.g. in physics texts written by native speakers of AE. No need to comment "Shame on the USA".

agree  Brie Vernier: Strongly disagree with David -- "on" in this context is clearly NOT wrong, see my reference in response to Jack above
8 hrs

agree  Kari Foster: Often used interchangeably, and often used very imprecisely to mean "approximately".
18 hrs
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5 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5
to the order of OR of the order of


Explanation:
I have not come across the expression "on the order of". It is usually "to the order of" OR "of the order of" depending on the grammatical structure of the sentence.

Ramesh Madhavan
Local time: 14:05
Specializes in field
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish, Native in TamilTamil

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  Rachel Fell
5 mins
  -> Thanks Rachel

disagree  Brie Vernier: "to" is entirely different; "on" is NOT incorrect/unusual ... : http://m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?va=on the order of on the order of: 2 : ABOUT, APPROXIMATELY
14 mins
  -> The "on" here refers to "spent" and not to the "the order of"
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7 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5
OF the order is more precise


Explanation:
as in mathematics it means
having the order of magnitude specified by ...

of the order of
1 approximately : sales increases are of the order of 20%.
2 Mathematics having the order of magnitude specified by.

on the order of
1 another term for of the order of (sense 1) above.
2 along the lines of; similar to : singers on the order of Janis Joplin.

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Note added at 9 mins (2006-09-28 12:05:51 GMT)
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and in your example 0.5 is more precise than 10

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Note added at 1 hr (2006-09-28 13:35:55 GMT)
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to brie: it's new oxford american dictionary that came with my macbook, why?
are they not good enough for you?! i've noticed the converted commas!!!

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Note added at 1 hr (2006-09-28 13:39:38 GMT)
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oh, dear...

sergey (X)
Local time: 08:35

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
neutral  Brie Vernier: Please provide references for your "definitions"
12 mins
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2 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5 peer agreement (net): +1
'of', 'on', or 'in' - it's just better to use the same preposiiton in both cases


Explanation:
Despite Jack's and David's insistence on "on" being the only grammatical usage, Google searches don't support such a statement:

"coefficient is IN the order of 10": 1030 hits
"coefficient is ON the order of 10": 823 hits
"coefficient is OF the order of 10": 1070 hits

Granted, a healthy portion of the hits must be from translated sources. However, the statistics don't make a convincing case for any of the 3 prepositions being the only correct one.

David points out that "of" has a different meaning than "on". That's very true. Still, if you cosider the meanings of both, it's obvious that both can be used to express roughly the same concept:

"the coefficient is OF the order of 10" = "the coefficient BELONGS TO/HAS the order of 10"

"the coefficient is ON/IN the order of 10" = "the coefficient FALLS INTO/ONTO the area close to 10"

Finally, a word on David's "shame on the USA": in the course of the last 2-3 centuries, AE admittedly has deviated some from the Queen's English in a number of aspects. One may even prefer to call AE "American language". That doesn't make it any worse or better language than BE, so there is no reason for "shame".

What’s in a name? that which we call a rose
By any other name would smell as sweet
(or sweeter!)

Alexander Demyanov
Local time: 04:35
Works in field
Native speaker of: Native in RussianRussian

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
neutral  David Moore (X): Errr...but we both "insist" on "OF", don't we...but thanks all the same!
35 mins
  -> You are most welcome, David.

agree  Alison Jenner: OED says it can be "of", "in" or "on": http://www.askoxford.com/concise_oed/order?view=uk
1 hr
  -> Thanks, Alison.
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