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slip .?. each other

English translation: ...with respect to...

12:02 Nov 24, 2006
English language (monolingual) [PRO]
Science - Science (general) / scientific writing
English term or phrase: slip .?. each other
Dear native speakers! What preposition would you put in place of [relative to] in the sentence below? TIA
Google offers: past, against, between, over, etc.

The laminas of the laminate are perfectly bonded, i.e., they do not separate from each other and do not slip [relative to] each other.
Nik-On/Off
Ukraine
Local time: 23:50
Selected answer:...with respect to...
Explanation:
Would be one way of expressin it, though personally, I feel that the whole problem arises because of this uneasy 'personification' of the laminæ!

OK, you can say "they do not separate from each other" — but why not then go on to say "and there is no slippage between them"? Or "no slippage occurs between them"

In this case, the preposition is probably easier to decide.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 3 hrs (2006-11-24 15:11:35 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

In everyday, layman's language, the choice of prepositions can be very wide here, but if you are talking about a scientific / technical context, rather more care might be needed.

You might say:

'slip a pillowcase over a pillow'
'the book slipped from his hand'
'the key slipped between the bars of the grating'
'he slipped up on the wet floor'
'the fine wine slipped down his throat like silk'

But where it comes to things like laminations, what you really mean is that there will be no slippage between them — in other words, there will be no tendency to slide over one another. In a formal register, the use of other prepositions needs to be examined with some care.
Selected response from:

Tony M
France
Local time: 22:50
Grading comment
Thank you all and especially Ken Cox for his comprehensive explanation!
4 KudoZ points were awarded for this answer



SUMMARY OF ALL EXPLANATIONS PROVIDED
4 +6...with respect to...
Tony M
4 +4Following on from Tony's answer...
Marie-Hélène Hayles
4over
peter mcloughlin
3 +1further comments
Ken Cox
3against
erika rubinstein
4 -2they do neither separate nor slip from each other
ErichEko ⟹⭐


Discussion entries: 14





  

Answers


1 min   confidence: Answerer confidence 3/5Answerer confidence 3/5
against


Explanation:
...

erika rubinstein
Local time: 22:50
Native speaker of: Native in RussianRussian, Native in GermanGerman

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
neutral  Tony M: Of all the possibilities, I think that would be my least-favourite choice
5 mins
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4 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5
over


Explanation:
Assuming the parts of the laminate are stacked one on top of another

peter mcloughlin
Local time: 22:50
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
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27 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5 peer agreement (net): +4
Following on from Tony's answer...


Explanation:
another way to express the concept and avoid unnecessary repetition would be
"i.e. there is no separation or slippage between the lamina".

Marie-Hélène Hayles
Local time: 22:50
Specializes in field
Native speaker of: English
PRO pts in category: 8

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  Ken Cox: also a good solution, although I would use 'of' instead of 'between'.
5 mins
agree  Rachel Fell: and with Ken
18 mins
agree  Will Matter: Good.
2 hrs
agree  Alfa Trans (X)
5 hrs
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2 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5 peer agreement (net): -2
they do neither separate nor slip from each other


Explanation:
IMHO.... Efficient right?! There are some 800k google entries on "slip from".

ErichEko ⟹⭐
Indonesia
Local time: 03:50
Works in field
Native speaker of: Native in IndonesianIndonesian

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
disagree  Tony M: Not idiomatic, and I don't think the preposition 'from' works well with 'skip' in this particular context (though in some it would work OK)
15 mins
  -> Probably... Thx.
disagree  Marie-Hélène Hayles: agree with Tony - and "they do neither" sounds downright odd.// Google searches can be extremely effective in the right circumstances - this isn't one of them. It sounds extremely odd in your link, too (which, incidentally, seems to be a German company)
31 mins
  -> It is just one of 10k links http://www.accipio-consulting.com/html/according_to_bdu.html ... a weak counterargument// I've warned you against this weak counterargument;you can find yourself whatever you want (US gov/edu) at your own odd in the other 10k.
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6 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5 peer agreement (net): +6
...with respect to...


Explanation:
Would be one way of expressin it, though personally, I feel that the whole problem arises because of this uneasy 'personification' of the laminæ!

OK, you can say "they do not separate from each other" — but why not then go on to say "and there is no slippage between them"? Or "no slippage occurs between them"

In this case, the preposition is probably easier to decide.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 3 hrs (2006-11-24 15:11:35 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

In everyday, layman's language, the choice of prepositions can be very wide here, but if you are talking about a scientific / technical context, rather more care might be needed.

You might say:

'slip a pillowcase over a pillow'
'the book slipped from his hand'
'the key slipped between the bars of the grating'
'he slipped up on the wet floor'
'the fine wine slipped down his throat like silk'

But where it comes to things like laminations, what you really mean is that there will be no slippage between them — in other words, there will be no tendency to slide over one another. In a formal register, the use of other prepositions needs to be examined with some care.

Tony M
France
Local time: 22:50
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in category: 32
Grading comment
Thank you all and especially Ken Cox for his comprehensive explanation!

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  kmtext
2 mins
  -> Thanks, KM!
agree  Ken Cox: personally, I'd just say 'separate or slip' -- 'from each other' and 'relative to each other' are excess baggage.\\ True enough, but the line between precise language and excess verbiage can be pretty thin.
11 mins
  -> Thanks, KC! Yes, to some extent, you're quite right; but you know what scientific articles are like, always being so careful to dot the i's and cross the t's... ;-)
agree  Rachel Fell: agree with Ken - I think the "each other" bit sounds un-English - suggests a translation of a reflexive verb
37 mins
  -> Thanks, Rachel! Yes, indeed, agree on all points...
agree  Attila Piróth
1 hr
  -> Thanks, Attila!
agree  RHELLER: absolutely!
1 hr
  -> Thanks, Rita!
agree  Marie-Hélène Hayles: nice examples
3 hrs
  -> Thanks, M-HH! Tricky, isn't it?
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4 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 3/5Answerer confidence 3/5 peer agreement (net): +1
further comments


Explanation:
Instead of (formally) abusing the Ask Asker function, which is naturally ideal for the untended purpose of conducting a discussion, I offer some further comments here:

I basically agree with Dusty -- in your context 'slippage' would be more common usage. But if you want to (or insist on) using your construction, there's nothing at all wrong with 'slip relative to each other'.

Further, saying that 'two objects can slip simultaneously' suggests to me that they both slip relative to some other object, but I don't this this is what you mean. Instead, what I think you mean is that they slip relative to each other.

IMO the problem arises at least in part because a reference to some other object is implied and understood in the meaning of 'slip' -- essentially by definition, 'slip' means motion with with reference to another object or at least an external frame of reference. It is thus not necessary to identify the reference object unless its somehow relevant to the nature or occurrence of the slip or slippage.

If you regard one of the two objects as essentially stationary, you can say that one object slips over the other one (typically used in a geological context). You can also say that one object slips on another object (such as a car slipping on a road), which at least suggests that the latter object is much larger than the former. You can also say that something slips past something else, which means the 'boundary' between them is vertical and they do not come in contact. Similary, you can say something slips under something else (as a person under a fence).

However, if the two objects are essentially equivalent (such as the layers of laminated material) and neither of them can be regarded as 'stationary', IMO you would do better to use a different contruction or say that they slip relative to each other.

As for 'separate' (as a verb),when used intransitively without a modifying clause it means 'to come apart' (typically but not necessarily along a defined parting line or lines).

More particularly, lamination separation is such a well-known phenomenon with laminated materials that by far the most likely interpretation of 'separation of the lamina' is that they separate 'from each other' rather than from something else, unless you have explictly mentioned something else in the direct context (e.g separation of a laminate from a substrate).

In conclusion: in this context, the conventional understanding of 'separate or slip' would be exactly what you want, and if you actually mean that they separate or slip as a body from or relative to some other object, you would normally have to say this explicitly.

Ken Cox
Local time: 22:50
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in category: 20

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  RHELLER: great explanation - these verbal phrases (verb+ preposition) are very tough for English learners and I empathize. As I have brought up many times in the past, an English linguistics (searchable) forum would be a nice place to discuss this sort of thing.
2 hrs
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