https://www.proz.com/kudoz/english/sports-fitness-recreation/6320641-owners-of-the-two-teams-got-into-a-fight.html

owners of the two teams got into a fight

English translation: possibly physical but more likely a heated argument

08:28 Apr 28, 2017
English language (monolingual) [PRO]
Sports / Fitness / Recreation
English term or phrase: owners of the two teams got into a fight
Hello everyone,

From the book 99 Stories of the Game by Wayne Gretzky:

It can’t have been very fun playing against the Portage Lakes. It was seven-man hockey, played sixty minutes with a ten-minute rest at halftime. There were no substitutions unless a player was knocked out cold. And slashing wasn’t slashing until you hit above the knees. Goalies were not allowed to go down, but that may have been for the best, as they also didn’t wear masks. That season, the Lakes piled up 258 goals for and only 49 goals against in 25 games, an average of more than 10 goals per game.

In 1904, Jack’s team challenged both the 1902 Stanley Cup winner, Montreal’s AAA Little Men of Iron, and the 1903 and 1904 Stanley Cup champion, the Ottawa Silver Seven. Both said no. But that same year during a Stanley Cup challenge series between Ottawa and the Montreal Wanderers, ***the owners of the two teams got into a fight*** over a tie game and the Wanderers dropped out of the playoffs. Jack Gibson jumped on the opportunity and challenged the Wanderers to a two-game “world championship.” It wasn’t even close. That March, the pride of a small mining town in northern Michigan smoked the Montreal Wanderers 8–4 and 9–2.

Does "fight" imply a physical fight or a verbal fight, i.e. an argument/quarrel?

http://www.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com/definition/english...

1. struggle
[countable] a struggle against somebody/something using physical force fight (with somebody/something) He got into a fight with a man in the bar.

4. argument
[countable] fight (with somebody) (over/about something) (especially North American English) an argument about something

I'm not absolutely sure, but I think it was a physical fight. I think there's a connection between that fight and the fact that Wanderers dropped out of the playoffs.

On the other hand the physical fight between the owners seems a bit strange to me.

Thank you.
Mikhail Korolev
Local time: 21:01
Selected answer:possibly physical but more likely a heated argument
Explanation:
Hard to say for sure. Is there any way you can fudge?

I've been trawling through the records and there isn't that much said about this match other than that Ottawa arrived late and game was "dirty" and ended up tied 5-5. I think if the owners had got into a physical brawl it would have been highlighted in some of the reports as other matches are described as turning into "donnybrooks" (brawls).
It seems the heated argument was over the rematch as the Montreal team wanted a rematch in Montreal but the Ottawa team refused to do this and that's why they dropped out of the league....

see here:
"The Wanderers first Stanley Cup challenge was played against the Ottawa Hockey Club on March 2, 1904, resulting in a 5–5 tie game. The Wanderers would refuse to continue the series unless the tie was replayed in Montreal, and forfeited the series."

and here
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottawa_Senators_(original)
" ...In February 1904, during the CAHL season, Ottawa resigned from the league in a dispute over the replaying of a game. The team had arrived late for a game in Montreal and the game had been called at midnight, with a tied score. The league demanded that the game be replayed. The club agreed to play only if the game mattered in the standings. The impasse led to Ottawa leaving the league. For the rest of that winter, the club played only in Cup challenge series. Quebec went on to win the championship of the league and demanded the Stanley Cup, but the Cup's trustees ruled that Ottawa still retained it. The trustees offered to arrange a challenge between Ottawa and the CAHL champion, but the CAHL refused to consider it...."

http://www.hockeyleaguehistory.com/Federal_Amateur_Hockey_Le...
Mar. 2, 1904: at Montreal Ottawa 5 Montreal Wanderers (FAHL) 5. Following the tie game, a new two game series was ordered to be played in Ottawa. Wanderers refused unless the tie game was replayed in Montreal. No settlement could be reached. The series was abandoned and Ottawa retained the Stanley Cup.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1903–04_Ottawa_Hockey_Club_sea...
Wanderers vs. Ottawa
A two-game series between the Montreal Wanderers and Ottawa Hockey Club was arranged, for the Stanley Cup and the FAHL championship. The teams played the first game in Montreal to a tie of 5–5. Montreal refused to play overtime, demanding that the game be considered a no-contest and proposed that the series start over as a best two-of-three series. The Cup trustees demanded that the series continued as scheduled and the Wanderers abandoned the challenge.
Date Score Losing Team Location
March 2, 1904 Ended in a 5–5 tie Montreal Arena
Ottawa wins series; Montreal is disqualified for refusing to play second game in
Ottawa.
According to the Gazette, the game saw "the dirtiest game ever seen between two senior teams at the Arena." Thirty-six penalties were called. Leahy was injured and replaced by Mallan. James Strachan, president of the Wanderers was quoted as saying that the Wanderers would not go to Ottawa and play with Dr.
Kearns as referee....
Source: Montreal Gazette
The Wanderers demanded a replay of the game to be held in Montreal, which Ottawa refused. The series was cancelled, with Ottawa claiming the FAHL championship..."

http://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/2009/4/29/859123/history-4...
"...Despite being such a new club, the Wanderers quickly became the biggest thorn in the side of the Senators. They mounted their first Cup challenge versus Ottawa in 1904. The first game, played in Montreal, was a 5-5 tie, which required a re-match... The Wanderers refused to continue unless the game was replayed in Montreal. They wound up forfeiting and losing their challenge. This was the source of bad blood that would continue for years..."

the Senators certainly played dirty at the time:

"...In a Stanley Cup challenge game in 1904, the Ottawas injured seven of the nine Winnipeg players, and the Winnipeg Free Press called it the "bloodiest game in Ottawa." The next team to challenge the Ottawas, the Toronto Marlboroughs, were similar treated. According to the Toronto Globe:

" ...The style of hockey seems to be the only one known and people consider it quite proper and legitimate for a team to endeavor to incapacitate their opponents rather than to excel them in skill and speed ... slashing, tripping, the severest kind of cross-checking and a systematic method of hammering Marlboroughs on hand and wrists are the most effective points in Ottawa's style.

According to one player, the "Marlboroughs got off very easily. When Winnipeg Rowing Club played here, most of their players were carried off on stretchers." This style of hockey would continue for years to come..."

http://sens20.ottawasenators.com/early-years/stanley-cup-yea...

http://sportsecyclopedia.com/nhl/ott/originalsens.html
In 1904 the Silver Seven rolled through the Winnipeg Rowing Club, Sending every player from WRC off the ice via stretcher. The Silver Seven were intimidating as they also rolled through the Toronto Marlboros, Montreal Wanderers, and Brandon Wheat Kings in 1904

See more at:
http://www.agreatgamebook.com/#timeline-1904
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montreal_Wanderers
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottawa_Senators_(original)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1904–05_Ottawa_Hockey_Club_sea...


--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2 days3 hrs (2017-04-30 11:30:33 GMT) Post-grading
--------------------------------------------------

Glad to have helped! I actually saw Wayne Gretzky play in Montreal (for Oilers vs Canadiens) back in 1980 or '81 when he was a rising star.
Selected response from:

Yvonne Gallagher
Ireland
Local time: 18:01
Grading comment
Thank you very much, Gallagy.
4 KudoZ points were awarded for this answer



SUMMARY OF ALL EXPLANATIONS PROVIDED
3 +3possibly physical but more likely a heated argument
Yvonne Gallagher
Summary of reference entries provided
ref.
bonafide1313

Discussion entries: 6





  

Answers


3 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 3/5Answerer confidence 3/5 peer agreement (net): +3
possibly physical but more likely a heated argument


Explanation:
Hard to say for sure. Is there any way you can fudge?

I've been trawling through the records and there isn't that much said about this match other than that Ottawa arrived late and game was "dirty" and ended up tied 5-5. I think if the owners had got into a physical brawl it would have been highlighted in some of the reports as other matches are described as turning into "donnybrooks" (brawls).
It seems the heated argument was over the rematch as the Montreal team wanted a rematch in Montreal but the Ottawa team refused to do this and that's why they dropped out of the league....

see here:
"The Wanderers first Stanley Cup challenge was played against the Ottawa Hockey Club on March 2, 1904, resulting in a 5–5 tie game. The Wanderers would refuse to continue the series unless the tie was replayed in Montreal, and forfeited the series."

and here
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottawa_Senators_(original)
" ...In February 1904, during the CAHL season, Ottawa resigned from the league in a dispute over the replaying of a game. The team had arrived late for a game in Montreal and the game had been called at midnight, with a tied score. The league demanded that the game be replayed. The club agreed to play only if the game mattered in the standings. The impasse led to Ottawa leaving the league. For the rest of that winter, the club played only in Cup challenge series. Quebec went on to win the championship of the league and demanded the Stanley Cup, but the Cup's trustees ruled that Ottawa still retained it. The trustees offered to arrange a challenge between Ottawa and the CAHL champion, but the CAHL refused to consider it...."

http://www.hockeyleaguehistory.com/Federal_Amateur_Hockey_Le...
Mar. 2, 1904: at Montreal Ottawa 5 Montreal Wanderers (FAHL) 5. Following the tie game, a new two game series was ordered to be played in Ottawa. Wanderers refused unless the tie game was replayed in Montreal. No settlement could be reached. The series was abandoned and Ottawa retained the Stanley Cup.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1903–04_Ottawa_Hockey_Club_sea...
Wanderers vs. Ottawa
A two-game series between the Montreal Wanderers and Ottawa Hockey Club was arranged, for the Stanley Cup and the FAHL championship. The teams played the first game in Montreal to a tie of 5–5. Montreal refused to play overtime, demanding that the game be considered a no-contest and proposed that the series start over as a best two-of-three series. The Cup trustees demanded that the series continued as scheduled and the Wanderers abandoned the challenge.
Date Score Losing Team Location
March 2, 1904 Ended in a 5–5 tie Montreal Arena
Ottawa wins series; Montreal is disqualified for refusing to play second game in
Ottawa.
According to the Gazette, the game saw "the dirtiest game ever seen between two senior teams at the Arena." Thirty-six penalties were called. Leahy was injured and replaced by Mallan. James Strachan, president of the Wanderers was quoted as saying that the Wanderers would not go to Ottawa and play with Dr.
Kearns as referee....
Source: Montreal Gazette
The Wanderers demanded a replay of the game to be held in Montreal, which Ottawa refused. The series was cancelled, with Ottawa claiming the FAHL championship..."

http://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/2009/4/29/859123/history-4...
"...Despite being such a new club, the Wanderers quickly became the biggest thorn in the side of the Senators. They mounted their first Cup challenge versus Ottawa in 1904. The first game, played in Montreal, was a 5-5 tie, which required a re-match... The Wanderers refused to continue unless the game was replayed in Montreal. They wound up forfeiting and losing their challenge. This was the source of bad blood that would continue for years..."

the Senators certainly played dirty at the time:

"...In a Stanley Cup challenge game in 1904, the Ottawas injured seven of the nine Winnipeg players, and the Winnipeg Free Press called it the "bloodiest game in Ottawa." The next team to challenge the Ottawas, the Toronto Marlboroughs, were similar treated. According to the Toronto Globe:

" ...The style of hockey seems to be the only one known and people consider it quite proper and legitimate for a team to endeavor to incapacitate their opponents rather than to excel them in skill and speed ... slashing, tripping, the severest kind of cross-checking and a systematic method of hammering Marlboroughs on hand and wrists are the most effective points in Ottawa's style.

According to one player, the "Marlboroughs got off very easily. When Winnipeg Rowing Club played here, most of their players were carried off on stretchers." This style of hockey would continue for years to come..."

http://sens20.ottawasenators.com/early-years/stanley-cup-yea...

http://sportsecyclopedia.com/nhl/ott/originalsens.html
In 1904 the Silver Seven rolled through the Winnipeg Rowing Club, Sending every player from WRC off the ice via stretcher. The Silver Seven were intimidating as they also rolled through the Toronto Marlboros, Montreal Wanderers, and Brandon Wheat Kings in 1904

See more at:
http://www.agreatgamebook.com/#timeline-1904
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montreal_Wanderers
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottawa_Senators_(original)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1904–05_Ottawa_Hockey_Club_sea...


--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2 days3 hrs (2017-04-30 11:30:33 GMT) Post-grading
--------------------------------------------------

Glad to have helped! I actually saw Wayne Gretzky play in Montreal (for Oilers vs Canadiens) back in 1980 or '81 when he was a rising star.

Yvonne Gallagher
Ireland
Local time: 18:01
Works in field
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in category: 60
Grading comment
Thank you very much, Gallagy.
Notes to answerer
Asker: Thank you very much, Gallagy! I'll certainly find a way to fudge.


Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  philgoddard: Great research!
3 hrs
  -> Many thanks:-)

agree  Terry Richards: There's room for doubt but I agree that it was an argument. It dragged on too long for a physical fight.
16 hrs
  -> Many thanks:-). Well, the main thing is that I couldn't find any ref. to fisticuffs between owners on this occasion, just to a dispute over a rematch

agree  Yasutomo Kanazawa
16 hrs
  -> Many thanks:-)
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Reference comments


25 mins peer agreement (net): +1
Reference: ref.

Reference information:
I think you might be right in thinking it was physical

The Senators decided to start two players who had been substitutes in the previous games, Frank Finnigan and Hec Kilrea and the moves were a success. The Senators came out on the offensive and took a 2–0 lead in the first period on goals by Finnigan and Denneny. Denneny scored again in the third period to put the Senators ahead 3–0. The game degenerated after that. Lionel Hitchman and George Boucher fought, with Eddie Shore jumping in. Ottawa police jumped onto the ice to help the referees and Hitchman and Boucher were ejected. Oliver scored with six minutes to play. Ottawa's Hooley Smith butt-ended Oliver in the face with a minute to play. Shore jumped in to fight Smith and the two were ejected. After the game Coutu attacked referee Laflamme on his way to the dressing room.[3]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1927_Stanley_Cup_Finals

bonafide1313
Croatia
Native speaker of: Native in CroatianCroatian
Note to reference poster
Asker: Thank you, bonafide1313.


Peer comments on this reference comment (and responses from the reference poster)
neutral  Tony M: Well, we all know that ice-hockey has lots of fights — though usually only on the ice!
5 mins
  -> Thank you, yes, we do :) ... This is just in support of the idea that physical is possible off the ice, and is a situation from 1927 finals, not 1904, so I am not at all sure ...
agree  acetran
3 days 21 hrs
  -> Thank you!
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