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hydrocarbon and hydrocarbyl

Russian translation: углеводород и алкил

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15:51 Dec 3, 2001
English to Russian translations [PRO]
Science - Chemistry; Chem Sci/Eng / chemistry
English term or phrase: hydrocarbon and hydrocarbyl
Проблема в том, что все мои словари однозначно переводят "hydrocarbon" как углеводород, а "hydrocarbyl" вообще не переводят. Между тем, в Интернете достаточно много статей, где речь идет именно о гидрокарбонах, и чуть меньше - о гидрокарбиле. Поэтому вопрос: есть ли различие в русской научной терминологии между понятиями углеводород и гидрокарбон, или это одно и то же? И нет ли другого, более "научного" синонима у гидрокарбила? Спасибо.
Chekh
Russian translation:углеводород и алкил
Explanation:
Note that "алкил" is the generic term for a hydrocarbon functioning as a substituent...NOT a radical. No need for this "hydrocarbyl" nonsense!

See:

http://www.multitran.ru/cgi-bin/Mtsrv1.exe?MtsrvAction=ShowP...

It amazes me how nonchemists even attempt to fathom the depths of chemical nomenclature!
Selected response from:

DR. RICHARD BAVRY
Grading comment
Graded automatically based on peer agreement. KudoZ.
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Summary of answers provided
5 +2--
Natalie
5 +2углеводород и алкилDR. RICHARD BAVRY
4 +1sm.nizheshifrak
4 +1sm.nizheshifrak
4 -3hydrocarbon = углеводород; hydrocarbyl = углеводородная цепь или углеводородный радикалxxxH.A.
4 -3hydrocarbylshifrak


  

Answers


18 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5 peer agreement (net): -3
hydrocarbyl


Explanation:
carbyl is "karbil, uglerod v dvuxvalentnom sostoyanii" (Anglo-russkij slovar' po himii i pererabotke nefti" by Kedrinskij, 1975).

shifrak
United States
Local time: 01:02
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish, Native in RussianRussian

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
disagree  DR. RICHARD BAVRY: does not exist...bad entry in that dictionary
7 hrs

disagree  Natalie: Obviously bad entry!
10 hrs

disagree  Rusinterp: there's something wrong with the dictionary
21 days
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30 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5 peer agreement (net): -3
hydrocarbon = углеводород; hydrocarbyl = углеводородная цепь или углеводородный радикал


Explanation:
Re hydrocarbon: это - углеводород («гидрокарбон» говорить нельзя)

Hydrocarbyl groups:
Univalent groups formed by removing a hydrogen atom from a hydrocarbon. Cf. heterocyclyl, organoheteryl, organyl groups. E.g. ethyl, phenyl.

Из Руснета:
Цепь Главная Боковая (углеводородный радикал)
С мет метил
С2 эт этил
С3 проп пропил
С4 бут бутил
С5 пент пентил
С6 гекс гексил
С7 гепт гептил
С8 окт октил
С9 нон нонил
С10 дек децил


    Reference: http://www.alhimik.ru/sprav/name02.html
    Reference: http://www.chem.qmw.ac.uk/iupac/class/misc.html
xxxH.A.

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
disagree  DR. RICHARD BAVRY: I accept углеводород but this радикал confusion will not stand
7 hrs
  -> okay... всех не переспоришь :-)

disagree  Natalie: hydrocarbon = углеводород, но hydrocarbyl - это НЕ радикал
10 hrs

disagree  Rusinterp: Natalie is certainly correct
21 days
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8 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 5/5 peer agreement (net): +2
углеводород и алкил


Explanation:
Note that "алкил" is the generic term for a hydrocarbon functioning as a substituent...NOT a radical. No need for this "hydrocarbyl" nonsense!

See:

http://www.multitran.ru/cgi-bin/Mtsrv1.exe?MtsrvAction=ShowP...

It amazes me how nonchemists even attempt to fathom the depths of chemical nomenclature!


    organic chemist (Ph.D.) 30 years
    Specialist in chemical nomenclature at Chemical Abstracts
DR. RICHARD BAVRY
PRO pts in category: 8
Grading comment
Graded automatically based on peer agreement. KudoZ.

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  Natalie: Hi, Rich! Glad to meet you online!
5 hrs
  -> It is my pleasure to see you once again!

neutral  xxxH.A.: алкил и углев. рад. - это синонимы, и если бы автор хотел сказать «алкил», он бы применил в англ. alkyl
9 hrs
  -> sorry..they are not synonyms..and you are not a chemist!

agree  Rusinterp
21 days
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18 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5 peer agreement (net): +1
sm.nizhe


Explanation:
Oxford English Dictionary:

carbyl (<ph>"kA:bIl</ph>). Chem. Also carbyle.
[f. carb- + -yl.]
1. [a. G. carbyl, in carbylsulphat (G. Magnus 1839, in Ann. d. Physik und Chem. XLVII. 512).] A name for the basic hydrocarbon radical derived from ethylene; little used except in
carbyl sulphate, ethionic anhydride, (<b1>CH2<rdot>SO3<b1>)2, a white, deliquescent, crystalline substance.
1844 Fownes Chem. 395 Carbon, hydrogen, and the elements of sulphuric acid... Sulphate of carbyle.
1890 Bloxam<cq>s Chem. (ed. 7) 479 The compound formed by SO3 with ethylene..is termed carbyl sulphate or ethionic anhydride.
1950 N. V. Sidgwick Chem. Elements II. 903 With alcohol it [sc. sulphur trioxide] forms <oq>carbyl sulphate<cq>, which is..the anhydride of ethionic acid.
2. [a. F. carbyl, in carbylamine (A. <Ecirc>. J. Gautier 1867, in Compt. Rend. LXV. 902).] A divalent radical of carbon; little used except in
carbylamine (<ph>kA:bI"lжmi:n</ph>, <ph>kA:"baIl@mi:n</ph>), the isocyanide radical, <b1>NC; also, any of the compounds (also called carbamines, isocyanides, isonitriles) consisting of this radical attached to a hydrocarbon radical, which are foul-smelling poisonous liquids; spec., phenyl isocyanide, C6H5<rdot>NC;
carbylamine test, a test for detecting primary amines by heating the substance with chloroform in a basic solution, the presence of an amine being indicated by the characteristic smell of an isocyanide.
1879 Watts Dict. Chem. (ed. 2) VI. 522 In the one class..the alcohol-radicle is in direct union with the carbon; in the other, discovered independently by Hofmann and by Gautier in 1867, and designated as isocyanides, carbylamines, or carbamines, it is combined directly with the nitrogen.
1886 E. F. Smith tr. V. von Richter<cq>s Org. Chem. 246 The carbylamine test of Hofmann for detection of primary amines.
1887 A. M. Brown Contrib. Anim. Alkaloids 36 Heated with potash and chloroform, cadaverine does not give carbylamine.
1946 Nature 31 Aug. 295/2 The presence of amines by carbylamine test could not be shown.
1963 W. E. Flood Orig. Chem. Names 59/1 A comparison of the structure of a carbylamine with that of a simple amine..shows that the carbylamine may be regarded as an amine in which the two hydrogen atoms of the amino-group are replaced by carbyl (i.e. a carbon <oq>radical<cq>).

shifrak
United States
Local time: 01:02
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish, Native in RussianRussian

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  xxxH.A.: ну и пусть не верят, да?
23 mins

neutral  Rusinterp: and after all this, what do you call it in Russian?
20 days
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18 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5 peer agreement (net): +1
sm.nizhe


Explanation:
Oxford English Dictionary:

carbyl (<ph>"kA:bIl</ph>). Chem. Also carbyle.
[f. carb- + -yl.]
1. [a. G. carbyl, in carbylsulphat (G. Magnus 1839, in Ann. d. Physik und Chem. XLVII. 512).] A name for the basic hydrocarbon radical derived from ethylene; little used except in
carbyl sulphate, ethionic anhydride, (<b1>CH2<rdot>SO3<b1>)2, a white, deliquescent, crystalline substance.
1844 Fownes Chem. 395 Carbon, hydrogen, and the elements of sulphuric acid... Sulphate of carbyle.
1890 Bloxam<cq>s Chem. (ed. 7) 479 The compound formed by SO3 with ethylene..is termed carbyl sulphate or ethionic anhydride.
1950 N. V. Sidgwick Chem. Elements II. 903 With alcohol it [sc. sulphur trioxide] forms <oq>carbyl sulphate<cq>, which is..the anhydride of ethionic acid.
2. [a. F. carbyl, in carbylamine (A. <Ecirc>. J. Gautier 1867, in Compt. Rend. LXV. 902).] A divalent radical of carbon; little used except in
carbylamine (<ph>kA:bI"lжmi:n</ph>, <ph>kA:"baIl@mi:n</ph>), the isocyanide radical, <b1>NC; also, any of the compounds (also called carbamines, isocyanides, isonitriles) consisting of this radical attached to a hydrocarbon radical, which are foul-smelling poisonous liquids; spec., phenyl isocyanide, C6H5<rdot>NC;
carbylamine test, a test for detecting primary amines by heating the substance with chloroform in a basic solution, the presence of an amine being indicated by the characteristic smell of an isocyanide.
1879 Watts Dict. Chem. (ed. 2) VI. 522 In the one class..the alcohol-radicle is in direct union with the carbon; in the other, discovered independently by Hofmann and by Gautier in 1867, and designated as isocyanides, carbylamines, or carbamines, it is combined directly with the nitrogen.
1886 E. F. Smith tr. V. von Richter<cq>s Org. Chem. 246 The carbylamine test of Hofmann for detection of primary amines.
1887 A. M. Brown Contrib. Anim. Alkaloids 36 Heated with potash and chloroform, cadaverine does not give carbylamine.
1946 Nature 31 Aug. 295/2 The presence of amines by carbylamine test could not be shown.
1963 W. E. Flood Orig. Chem. Names 59/1 A comparison of the structure of a carbylamine with that of a simple amine..shows that the carbylamine may be regarded as an amine in which the two hydrogen atoms of the amino-group are replaced by carbyl (i.e. a carbon <oq>radical<cq>).

shifrak
United States
Local time: 01:02
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish, Native in RussianRussian

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  xxxH.A.: они нам завидуют... (шутка)
27 mins
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21 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 5/5 peer agreement (net): +2
--


Explanation:
Дополнение к ответу Ричарда:

Дело в том, что существуют "настоящие" радикалы - свободные, и так называемые "радикалы" (углеводородные остатки).

По поводу радикалов "настоящих":
В органических молекулах электроны на внешней электронной оболочке располагаются парами: одна пара на каждой орбитали. Свободные радикалы отличаются от обычных молекул тем, что у них на внешней электронной оболочке имеется неспаренный (одиночный) электрон. Это делает радикалы химически активными, поскольку радикал стремится вернуть себе недостающий электрон, отняв его от окружающих молекул и тем самым их повреждая.
Неспаренный электрон в радикалах принято обозначать точкой. Например, радикал гидроксила обозначают как HO·, радикал
перекиси водорода как HOO·, радикал супероксида как ·OO- или O2·-.

Что касается "углеводородных радикалов", то синонимом в данном случае является "углеводородный остаток"; во избежание путаницы слово "радикал" следует употреблять весьма умеренно, хотя, разумеется, словосочетание "углеводородный радикал" употребляется.

Углеводородный радикал (в смысле остаток)- это никак не синоним алкила; углеводородный радикал может быть насыщенным, ненасыщенным, ароматическим, содержать заместители, в том числе и гетероатомы Cl, O, S и т. д. В то же время алкил - это углеводородный остаток совершенно конкретного типа.
Углеводородная цепь - это фактически вообще любой углеводород (кроме циклического).
Нас же спрашивают, КАК БУДЕТ ПО-РУССКИ "hydrocarbyl". Так вот, hydrocarbyl - это тоже углеводородный остаток, но вполне конкретного типа (а не углеводородный остаток вообще). Слова "гидрокарбил" в русском языке нет, эквивалентом в данном случае будет "алкил", как совершенно правильно ответил Ричард.

(кстати, кроме hydrocarbyl groups, существуют еще hydrocarbylene, hydrocarbylidene, hydrocarbylidyne groups - и все это тоже углеводородные остатки, так что перевести hydrocarbyl просто как "углеводородный остаток/радикал" никак нельзя).

Natalie
Poland
Local time: 07:02
Specializes in field
Native speaker of: Native in RussianRussian
PRO pts in category: 1386

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  DR. RICHARD BAVRY: Молодец!!!
1 hr

agree  Rusinterp: perfect explanation
20 days
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