grammatical sense of 'services qualités et méthodes'

English translation: quality and methods services

GLOSSARY ENTRY (DERIVED FROM QUESTION BELOW)
French term or phrase:services qualités et méthodes
English translation:quality and methods services
Entered by: silviantonia

05:02 Jul 31, 2007
French to English translations [PRO]
Bus/Financial - Automotive / Cars & Trucks / Audit and financial report
French term or phrase: grammatical sense of 'services qualités et méthodes'
En phase de pré série, les services qualités et méthodes n’étaient pas sollicités.

This has to do with the startup of the Tigra series; I am confused right now about whether quality modifies both services and methods. In other words, is it saying that in the pre-series, quality services and quality methods were not requested?

This is a DUMB question, but I am tired, suffering from allergies which don't let me sleep properly at night, and so I am hoping one of you kind and wonderful individuals will enlighten me...

Merci in very great quantities and very much in advance.

Slide 48 of 113!
silviantonia
United States
Local time: 22:41
See comments below...
Explanation:
I'm rather inclined to agree with Sarah and Natasha — it would appear on the face of it to be referring to 2 different services (or possibly more likely 'departments')

HOWEVER, that would account for the plural 'les services', but doesn't really explain why both 'qualités and 'methodes' should be plural too? I would have found it easier to understand if it had been one service / department that was called 'Quality & Methods' (yes, they do exist!) — but in that case, the plural 'les services' and also on 'qualités' would be wrong.

I still think Sarah's idea is right, but it does look to me as if there is at least one plural 's' too many — I find it hard to believe that they really have a dept. called 'Qualities'! Unless of course they have lots of depts. for both quality and methods!!
Selected response from:

Tony M
France
Local time: 07:41
Grading comment
I am still not certain, but this is what I used, in any event. Thanks!
4 KudoZ points were awarded for this answer



Summary of answers provided
4 +2More comments
Bourth (X)
3 +1See comments below...
Tony M
4even further comments
Richard Benham
3grammar error
veratek


Discussion entries: 2





  

Answers


1 hr   confidence: Answerer confidence 3/5Answerer confidence 3/5 peer agreement (net): +1
See comments below...


Explanation:
I'm rather inclined to agree with Sarah and Natasha — it would appear on the face of it to be referring to 2 different services (or possibly more likely 'departments')

HOWEVER, that would account for the plural 'les services', but doesn't really explain why both 'qualités and 'methodes' should be plural too? I would have found it easier to understand if it had been one service / department that was called 'Quality & Methods' (yes, they do exist!) — but in that case, the plural 'les services' and also on 'qualités' would be wrong.

I still think Sarah's idea is right, but it does look to me as if there is at least one plural 's' too many — I find it hard to believe that they really have a dept. called 'Qualities'! Unless of course they have lots of depts. for both quality and methods!!

Tony M
France
Local time: 07:41
Specializes in field
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in category: 460
Grading comment
I am still not certain, but this is what I used, in any event. Thanks!

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
neutral  CMJ_Trans (X): probably just bad French - it happens !
32 mins
  -> Thnaks, CMJ! Yes, I quite agree!

agree  Richard Benham: There is no defence forthe "s" on "qualités" on any interpretation: "1 service qualité" or "3 services qualité". The error is understandable: I had a native French teacher who admitted to habitually writing "les XIXièmes et XXièmes siècles"!
1 hr
  -> Thanks, RB! Certainly looks like an error, doesn't it?
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2 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5 peer agreement (net): +2
More comments


Explanation:
Who knows, maybe each department/division in the production chain has its own quality service and its own methods service:

Design quality service and design methods service
Production planning quality service and production planning methods service
Robotic automation quality service and robotic automation methods service
Staff teabreak quality service and staff teabreak methods service, etc.

But gut instinct tells me there should be no 2 on "qualité".

Bourth (X)
Local time: 07:41
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in category: 673

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  Richard Benham: You are right about the "no s", despite the typo. See my note to Tony for more detail.
19 mins

agree  Tony M
22 mins
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3 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5
even further comments


Explanation:
I wasn't going to weigh in here, but there is not enough space allowed for comments for me to present my argument in full.

You need to distinguish between two functions served by a noun placed immediately after another noun. I am not too sure about the terminology here, but I will call them nouns "in apposition" and "attributive" nouns.

An example of a noun in apposition would be "femme flic". She is a woman, but also a cop. So, if you have the misfortune to encounter two of them, they would be "deux femmes flics". (This is different from English, where they would be "two woman cops".)

However, in the term "service qualité" the noun "qualité" is attributive. It tells you what sort of service or department it is: a "service qualité" is not both a department and a quality, but a department that deals with quality. Nouns used attributively do not vary in number. You have one "service qualité" or two "services qualité"; similarly you have one "service méthodes" or two "services méthodes". Whether the attributive noun goes in the singular or plural is largely an idiomatic matter, but it remains the same whether the main noun is singular or plural.

I conclude, then, that the "s" on "qualités" is a mistake, albeit a natural one (due to the attraction of the nearby nouns in the plural). There is nothing here to distinguish between "quality departments and methods departments", "quality department and methods department", "quality departments and method department", "quality deparment and methods departments". However, the English translation "quality and methods departments" is perfectly acceptable and carries the same ambiguity.

(BTW I have seen the argument that you should never "translate the ambiguity", but should always try to resolve the ambiguity and provide an unambiguous translation. This argument is arrogant and dangerous codswallop. In this case, it is more than likely that the target audience will be familiar with the company structure, and it is not for a translator, in the absence of any privileged information, to presume to know better.)

Richard Benham
France
Local time: 07:41
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
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4 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 3/5Answerer confidence 3/5
grammar error


Explanation:
Agree with grammar (error) explanation about plural in qualités. However, I would think these are not two different depts.

There are only a few ppl making this mistake on Ghits, but they are all referring to one ensemble:

www.Process.OnLine.fr - Le site dédié aux techniques et méthodes ...
- [ Translate this page ]
Online les outils qualités et méthodes : 5S, TPM, AMDEC, et bien d'autres, ... Pour cela, elle vous fait bénéficier de différents services dans une ambiance ...
www.process.online.fr/ - 36k - Cached - Similar pages - Note this


... vente de prestations de services à forte valeur ajoutée auprès de grands .... suivant et perfectionnant les normes qualités et méthodes de la société. ...
www.anciens.epita.fr/.../ce8aa497161f8842802565160050368b/b... - 22k - Cached - Similar pages - Note this
CV de Technicienne qualité , cherche un emploi de qualités et ...


CV de Technicienne qualité cherche un emploi de qualités et méthodes, ... Les offres de missions - Présentez-vous GRATUIT - Services réservés aux ...
www.methodes.enligne-fr.com/mini_cv.php?code=nF29tAAxqsAJQB - 53k - Supplemental Result - Cached - Similar pages - Note this
Petra SCHEUFEN


Tous les six mois un bilan groupé des notes qualités et délai pour chaque sous-traitant est réalisé pour les services qualités et méthodes. ...
www.afpa2607.com/blogaieb/2005-2006/index.php?blog=10&page=... - 67k - Cached - Similar pages - Note this


Scientifique et professionnelle, et les groupes des services extérieurs (FS) et stagiaire .... Zone de concours; Énoncé de qualités et méthodes de révision ...
www.psagency-agencefp.gc.ca/ee/publications/ee/deesr-edese1... - 77k -

I think ppl above just added the S to qualités because it goes with the flow of serviceS, normeS, etc. and correct grammar was lost.


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Note added at 9 hrs (2007-07-31 14:33:24 GMT)
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A service and a department are completely different things, they are not synonyms, so I don't think you can jumble and use them interchangeably.

I have not heard of a "Methods Dept" - meaning, not research methods dept, stat methods dept, "etc methods" dept , just "methods dept"? Never heard of it.

Do you know of a company that has a "Methods Dept."?

I'm certainly not saying that just because I haven't heard of it, it doesn't exist, but it's quite senseless. Quality can stand on its own, but "methods" begs the question of methods of what kind, what for?

Regarding services, it's different. The methods and the quality services could be part of the same ensemble or not. And the entry did say services and not departments. My comment was in reference to Tony's suggestion of the possibility for "departments," and not anything related to the original query.





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Note added at 10 hrs (2007-07-31 16:00:44 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

BusterK - how many Ghits? one, two? That's not a very good indication, quite on the contrary...

veratek
Brazil
Local time: 02:41
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
neutral  BusterK: "service méthodes" definitively exists. The english version is method department !
47 mins
  -> disagree :-) see my note

neutral  Richard Benham: I am not sure I follow your argument here. "Services" is in the plural and makes sense that way, and should be left alone, though "qualités" is definitely wrong. Services and departments may be different things or may be the same in English....
5 hrs
  -> the first time I read it, I thought of services, not of soliciting (the services of ) the department(s) which is/are called "services qualités et méthodes"
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