dettes fiscales et sociales

English translation: taxes payable, liabilities to personnel and other social liabilities

02:33 Apr 16, 2005
French to English translations [PRO]
Bus/Financial - Finance (general) / financial statements
French term or phrase: dettes fiscales et sociales
As part of "dettes" listed in financial statements...I'm not sure whether this would be best translated as "tax and corporate debts" or "tax and social welfare debts" or perhaps "taxes and social welfare contributions due". Would be grateful for any guidance. TIA.
Sarah Walls
Australia
Local time: 23:18
English translation:taxes payable, liabilities to personnel and other social liabilities
Explanation:
I think it is very important to include the "salaries" element in this item.
The wording above is one I have often come across, but I don't have a reference for it.

It would also appear that "dividends payable" comes under this heading, but I am not sure it is useful or even necessary to include it. The list is long enough already...

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Note added at 15 hrs 6 mins (2005-04-16 17:40:02 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

ok here is a standard definition of the contents of \"dettes fiscales et sociales\":

http://www.decid.com/annotations/etude_fi/A_bilan.php

DY - Dettes Fiscales & Sociales
Les dettes fiscales et sociales (compris IR ou IS)
42 Personnel et comptes rattachés
- 421 Rémunérations personnel dues
- 422 Comité d\'entreprise
- 424 Participations salariés fruits expansion
- 428 Charges à payer
43 Sécurité sociale et organismes sociaux
44 Etat et Collectivité publiques
- 442 Impôts et taxes recouvrables sur tiers
- 444 Impôts sur les bénéfices
- 445 Etat Taxes sur le chiffre d\'affaires
- 447 Autres impôts taxes et assimilés
     - 4482 Charges fiscales sur congés payés
     - 4486 Autres charges à payer
- 457 Associés dividendes à payer

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 16 hrs 7 mins (2005-04-16 18:40:47 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

And as further clarification: the account item numbers above are from the Plan Comptable Général.

Unfortunately I can\'t find where the PCG defines the contents of \"dettes fiscales et sociales\", but rather the items which are, in common practice, lumped together into it. These are a good number of the \"comptes de tiers\", namely numbers 42 (liabilities to personnel), 43 (social liabilities), 44 (taxes payable) and the non-capital elements of 45 (liabilities to shareholders).

You can consult the PGC here: http://www.finances.gouv.fr/reglementation/avis/avisCNCompta...
http://www.finances.gouv.fr/reglementation/avis/avisCNCompta...
http://www.finances.gouv.fr/reglementation/avis/avisCNCompta...
http://www.finances.gouv.fr/reglementation/avis/avisCNCompta...
http://www.finances.gouv.fr/reglementation/avis/avisCNCompta...

I you check out the last link, you will find model balance sheets in rtf format.
The most developed table for balance sheet liabilities is http://www.finances.gouv.fr/reglementation/avis/avisCNCompta...


I am surprised at how difficult it is to find any solid, hard, factual information about the exact content of \"dettes fiscales et sociales\".


--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 16 hrs 17 mins (2005-04-16 18:50:51 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

At last I found one:

http://www.kazibao.net/francais/corporate/fichiers/telechar/...


DETTES FISCALES ET SOCIALES 507 534
Rémunérations dues 0
Provision sur congés payés 47 083
URSSAF 165 955
GRISS 31 958
APICIL 46 909
ASSEDIC 98 407
ALP 24 906
Provision charges sociales sur congés payés 18 833
Provision charges sociales divers 5 568
TVA à payer 0
Taxe d\'apprentissage 5 047
Formation continue 2 524
Taxe professionnelle 1 920
TVA Collectée 58 424
-------------
TOTAL 507 534

So that includes
- liabilities to personnel: pay, paid holidays
- social charges
- misc taxes (but NOT income tax / company tax)
- VAT

And in this case it doesn\'t include dividends payable.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 day 6 hrs 13 mins (2005-04-17 08:46:57 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

****

To Jane Lamb-Ruiz:
Your successive \"neutral\" comments were:
JLR: \"the salaries element is payroll taxes..,and employer contributions\"
- I described above why this is very often NOT the case. Pay, paid holidays and liabilities to the works council (all elements which can fall under this item) are not \"payroll taxes..,and employer contributions\"

JLR: \"..you make my point completely. In English, you say: outstanding payroll taxes and employer contributions [under liabilities: which means not yet paid]\"
- No, in English when describing certain liabilities of a company, you do indeed talk of \"outstanding payroll taxes\". But not as a line item in the balance sheet (which is the subject of the question).
- In any event, this point is secondary. I merely found it ironic that you criticised SwissTell and CB for using terms \"you never find in financial statements\" and while yourself offering terms which... you never find in financial statements!

JLR: \"there is no mention of salaries in my answer: payroll taxes yes...I asked for clarification from the Poster and got it from you. Your list of items boils down to: payroll taxes and employer contributions..I don\'t understand the problem\"
- my list of terms includes: pay, paid holiday entitlements, VAT, taxe professionnelle... none of which are \"payroll taxes and employer contributions\". Therefore my answer most definitely does NOT \"boil down to\" an erroneous answer on your part.
- you never asked for clarification from Poster
- clarification from the Asker isn\'t needed anyway since this is a standard balance sheet line item in French accounting. Since Asker is asking the question, it has to be assumed that Asker isn\'t quite sure what the line item refers to exactly. By the time you first answered here, these \"issues\" were already defined.

****

As far as answering the question is concerned, the Asker gave a perfectly reasonable answer right from the start:
\"tax and social welfare debts\" : if you delete the \"welfare\" this is a somewhat woolly but altogether correct response.

Then SwissTell gave a perfectly correct answer (albeit with a typo) in exactly this sense.

I gave an alternative which is correct *in fact*, but as I clearly specified from the outset, I am not entirely certain about whether one should specify the \"dividends\" aspect as many companies will NOT have outstanding dividends. Following investigation, it appears that dividends can be included, but not always.

Asker may choose to use my wording, or the wording of another answer, or something else entirely: that is the purpose of KudoZ after all.
However, KudoZ is not there to feed false information to the Asker. Whether this is due to guessing, a mix-up in terminology, or simply relying on Google hit lists without actually looking at the content of the linked pages.
That said, everybody makes mistakes. Naturally.
Selected response from:

Christopher RH
Local time: 15:18
Grading comment
Crh, thank you for a most informative answer (I didn't expect the question would generate such heat!) There are obviously a number of ways of expressing the idea, so am grateful to everyone for their suggestions, but I've given you the points for the information you've provided.
4 KudoZ points were awarded for this answer



Summary of answers provided
4 +3tax and social (security) debits
swisstell
5 +1outstanding taxes and employer contributions
Jane Lamb-Ruiz (X)
4 +1taxes payable, liabilities to personnel and other social liabilities
Christopher RH
3 +2it's your last suggestion
Charlie Bavington (X)
3tax arrears
sarahl (X)


  

Answers


12 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5 peer agreement (net): +3
tax and social (security) debits


Explanation:

... When analyzing the immense sums of tax and social security debits accumulated
over decades from the viewpoint of the company, some points should be ...
www.sac-es.com.br/eng/dontcry.htm

swisstell
Italy
Local time: 15:18
Specializes in field
Native speaker of: German
PRO pts in category: 65

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  Ghyslaine LE NAGARD: social means amounts such as salaries, services (supply a knowledge such as a doctor) and social amounts due to the Sécurité Sociale - amounts owed to pay equipment bought are not part of the social debt - hope this helps
1 hr

agree  Vicky Papaprodromou
5 hrs

neutral  Jane Lamb-Ruiz (X): debits is not used in financial statemetns except perhaps in notes
11 hrs

agree  Christopher RH: assuming "debits" was a mistyped "debts", this answer is perfectly fine.
15 hrs
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1 hr   confidence: Answerer confidence 3/5Answerer confidence 3/5
tax arrears


Explanation:
social means corporate taxes imo

sarahl (X)
Local time: 06:18
Native speaker of: Native in FrenchFrench
PRO pts in category: 23
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11 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 5/5 peer agreement (net): +1
outstanding taxes and employer contributions


Explanation:
not just securité sociale...a bunch of stuff..dette= outstanding=not yet paid or still to paid

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Note added at 11 hrs 13 mins (2005-04-16 13:46:35 GMT)
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In accounting,what is not yet paid is referred to as: Outstanding....

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 11 hrs 15 mins (2005-04-16 13:48:47 GMT)
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as in these examples: May 2003 5000 had been paid on account to the provider as payment towards the
outstanding employer contributions for the period to 31 December 2002; ...
www.opra.gov.uk/legalActivity/ determinations/determination_2598_03.asp - 41k - Cached - Similar pages

CoINVEST Company Bulletins
... Penalty interest will also be applied to any late or outstanding employer
contributions. The interest rate is fixed under Section 2 of the Penalty ...
www.coinvest.com.au/InfoShts/InfoCompanyBulletin.htm - 45k - Cached - Similar pages

and you will find the same for taxes....

cheers

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Note added at 11 hrs 18 mins (2005-04-16 13:51:43 GMT)
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The question is: is it Outstanding corporate and payroll taxes and contributions?
Or is it just: Outstanding taxes and employer contributions?

sociales are the payroll obligations including SS..meaning for the employees....I don\'t think sociales here means corporate...though it sometimes does

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Note added at 12 hrs 5 mins (2005-04-16 14:39:22 GMT)
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Final suggestion: if this includes company taxes, not sure:
outstanding taxes, including payroll and employer contributions

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Note added at 12 hrs 6 mins (2005-04-16 14:40:11 GMT)
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if this does not include company taxes:

oustanding payroll taxes and employer contributions..

End....:)

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 17 hrs 17 mins (2005-04-16 19:51:22 GMT)
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Note to Crh:

In these financial statements, one tries to use an English accounting style..English accounting style for tax debt is outstanding payroll taxes, for example..You will never see the word liability on a line item in English in accounting....a tax not yet paid or outstanding is listed as a line item under liabilties on the balance sheet but the line item itself does not contain the word liability.

This is my experience of 25 years in these matters. Should I eschew using them?

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Note added at 20 hrs 1 min (2005-04-16 22:35:06 GMT)
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Finally, outstanding payroll or other taxes are a liability...they are monies owed by the corporation to the state. But, it is listed as a line item and the word liability is not used there.



--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 20 hrs 4 mins (2005-04-16 22:37:51 GMT)
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... payroll difficulties and has ***outstanding payroll tax obligations**** as ... CONDENSED CONSOLIDATED BALANCE SHEETS December 31, December 31 ... Warmth Donate on-line or send ...
www.kctv.com/Global/story.asp?S=1785887 - 86k - Supplemental Result - Cached - Similar pages



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Note added at 20 hrs 7 mins (2005-04-16 22:40:56 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

and here is an example where they use liability and it is not in the line item, it is in Text

As of March 31, 1997 the Company\'s wholly owned subsidiary had outstanding
payroll tax liabilities for 1994 and 1995, $164,000 due to the Internal
Revenue Service. The Company has entered into an installment payment
agreement which calls for monthly payments of $21,000. The Internal Revenue
Service has filed liens against the Company\'s assets and will remove the
liens when the tax liabilities have been paid. The Company is in compliance
with regards to the payment agreement.


--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 20 hrs 8 mins (2005-04-16 22:41:55 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Suggestion: google: \"line item\" outstanding payroll tax

Jane Lamb-Ruiz (X)
Specializes in field
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish, Native in PortuguesePortuguese
PRO pts in category: 763

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
neutral  Christopher RH: You criticise others about what should appear on a balance sheet, and then you use "outstanding" for a liabilities item on it? // How about finding ONE SINGLE EXAMPLE of a Balance Sheet using "outstanding payroll..."?
4 hrs
  -> outstanding is not yet paid: the correct translation here is based on your showing exactly what it contains is: outstanding payroll taxes and employer contributions, where outstanding applies to both and is understood in English to come under liabilities!

agree  rkillings: This is a kitchen-sink category, and no short phrase can be an exact translation. I put "tax, social and other company liabilities" and leave it at that.
29 days
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9 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 3/5Answerer confidence 3/5 peer agreement (net): +2
it's your last suggestion


Explanation:
To clarify, you yourself and other answerers have the basic idea either in part or in whole but yes, this is money owed in corporate taxes and social security contributions.

Note, however, that this is "dettes" so it does not, IMO, refer to the taxes and contributions owing for the financial period (exercice, as per previous question) in question, but to amounts owing previously as yet unpaid.

"Back taxes and outstanding social secuity contributions" could sum that up.

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Note added at 9 hrs 16 mins (2005-04-16 11:49:56 GMT)
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tax arrears as per Sarah\'s suggestion is another way of expressing it (and although it\'s implied in the word \"arrears\", so she doesn\'t actually say so, this also emphasises the important fact that these \"dettes\" refer to previous tax years, not this one).

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 18 hrs 3 mins (2005-04-16 20:37:23 GMT)
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\"could sum it up\", but doesn\'t - it needs more. Christopher\'s got all the gen. I\'m not gonna delete this purely to prevent some other poor sap falling into the same trap as I did.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 21 hrs 0 min (2005-04-16 23:33:45 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

I ain\'t sayin\' it makes it right, but here\'s a balance sheet with \"tax arrears\" included as a liability:
http://www.energomachexport.com/themes/english/materials-doc...

Charlie Bavington (X)
Local time: 14:18
Works in field
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in category: 121

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  Christopher RH: Agreed - but it is a standard Balance Sheet Liabilities item so I don't think you need to differentiate too much as to the origin.
2 hrs
  -> true - all that stuff was more for the Asker's benefit.

agree  Jane Lamb-Ruiz (X): Charlie..I really should make no comment at all because they are taken the wrong way. I am just trying to help the asker. And I have done French balance sheets for 25 years...sorry you felt offended.
10 hrs
  -> To twist an old song slightly, sometimes "it ain't what you say, it's the way that you say it"... :-) And I've calmed down now :-) And regarding your original comment about "tax arrears" appearing on a balance sheet, please see above :-)
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9 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5 peer agreement (net): +1
taxes payable, liabilities to personnel and other social liabilities


Explanation:
I think it is very important to include the "salaries" element in this item.
The wording above is one I have often come across, but I don't have a reference for it.

It would also appear that "dividends payable" comes under this heading, but I am not sure it is useful or even necessary to include it. The list is long enough already...

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 15 hrs 6 mins (2005-04-16 17:40:02 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

ok here is a standard definition of the contents of \"dettes fiscales et sociales\":

http://www.decid.com/annotations/etude_fi/A_bilan.php

DY - Dettes Fiscales & Sociales
Les dettes fiscales et sociales (compris IR ou IS)
42 Personnel et comptes rattachés
- 421 Rémunérations personnel dues
- 422 Comité d\'entreprise
- 424 Participations salariés fruits expansion
- 428 Charges à payer
43 Sécurité sociale et organismes sociaux
44 Etat et Collectivité publiques
- 442 Impôts et taxes recouvrables sur tiers
- 444 Impôts sur les bénéfices
- 445 Etat Taxes sur le chiffre d\'affaires
- 447 Autres impôts taxes et assimilés
     - 4482 Charges fiscales sur congés payés
     - 4486 Autres charges à payer
- 457 Associés dividendes à payer

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 16 hrs 7 mins (2005-04-16 18:40:47 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

And as further clarification: the account item numbers above are from the Plan Comptable Général.

Unfortunately I can\'t find where the PCG defines the contents of \"dettes fiscales et sociales\", but rather the items which are, in common practice, lumped together into it. These are a good number of the \"comptes de tiers\", namely numbers 42 (liabilities to personnel), 43 (social liabilities), 44 (taxes payable) and the non-capital elements of 45 (liabilities to shareholders).

You can consult the PGC here: http://www.finances.gouv.fr/reglementation/avis/avisCNCompta...
http://www.finances.gouv.fr/reglementation/avis/avisCNCompta...
http://www.finances.gouv.fr/reglementation/avis/avisCNCompta...
http://www.finances.gouv.fr/reglementation/avis/avisCNCompta...
http://www.finances.gouv.fr/reglementation/avis/avisCNCompta...

I you check out the last link, you will find model balance sheets in rtf format.
The most developed table for balance sheet liabilities is http://www.finances.gouv.fr/reglementation/avis/avisCNCompta...


I am surprised at how difficult it is to find any solid, hard, factual information about the exact content of \"dettes fiscales et sociales\".


--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 16 hrs 17 mins (2005-04-16 18:50:51 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

At last I found one:

http://www.kazibao.net/francais/corporate/fichiers/telechar/...


DETTES FISCALES ET SOCIALES 507 534
Rémunérations dues 0
Provision sur congés payés 47 083
URSSAF 165 955
GRISS 31 958
APICIL 46 909
ASSEDIC 98 407
ALP 24 906
Provision charges sociales sur congés payés 18 833
Provision charges sociales divers 5 568
TVA à payer 0
Taxe d\'apprentissage 5 047
Formation continue 2 524
Taxe professionnelle 1 920
TVA Collectée 58 424
-------------
TOTAL 507 534

So that includes
- liabilities to personnel: pay, paid holidays
- social charges
- misc taxes (but NOT income tax / company tax)
- VAT

And in this case it doesn\'t include dividends payable.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 day 6 hrs 13 mins (2005-04-17 08:46:57 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

****

To Jane Lamb-Ruiz:
Your successive \"neutral\" comments were:
JLR: \"the salaries element is payroll taxes..,and employer contributions\"
- I described above why this is very often NOT the case. Pay, paid holidays and liabilities to the works council (all elements which can fall under this item) are not \"payroll taxes..,and employer contributions\"

JLR: \"..you make my point completely. In English, you say: outstanding payroll taxes and employer contributions [under liabilities: which means not yet paid]\"
- No, in English when describing certain liabilities of a company, you do indeed talk of \"outstanding payroll taxes\". But not as a line item in the balance sheet (which is the subject of the question).
- In any event, this point is secondary. I merely found it ironic that you criticised SwissTell and CB for using terms \"you never find in financial statements\" and while yourself offering terms which... you never find in financial statements!

JLR: \"there is no mention of salaries in my answer: payroll taxes yes...I asked for clarification from the Poster and got it from you. Your list of items boils down to: payroll taxes and employer contributions..I don\'t understand the problem\"
- my list of terms includes: pay, paid holiday entitlements, VAT, taxe professionnelle... none of which are \"payroll taxes and employer contributions\". Therefore my answer most definitely does NOT \"boil down to\" an erroneous answer on your part.
- you never asked for clarification from Poster
- clarification from the Asker isn\'t needed anyway since this is a standard balance sheet line item in French accounting. Since Asker is asking the question, it has to be assumed that Asker isn\'t quite sure what the line item refers to exactly. By the time you first answered here, these \"issues\" were already defined.

****

As far as answering the question is concerned, the Asker gave a perfectly reasonable answer right from the start:
\"tax and social welfare debts\" : if you delete the \"welfare\" this is a somewhat woolly but altogether correct response.

Then SwissTell gave a perfectly correct answer (albeit with a typo) in exactly this sense.

I gave an alternative which is correct *in fact*, but as I clearly specified from the outset, I am not entirely certain about whether one should specify the \"dividends\" aspect as many companies will NOT have outstanding dividends. Following investigation, it appears that dividends can be included, but not always.

Asker may choose to use my wording, or the wording of another answer, or something else entirely: that is the purpose of KudoZ after all.
However, KudoZ is not there to feed false information to the Asker. Whether this is due to guessing, a mix-up in terminology, or simply relying on Google hit lists without actually looking at the content of the linked pages.
That said, everybody makes mistakes. Naturally.

Christopher RH
Local time: 15:18
Works in field
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in category: 67
Grading comment
Crh, thank you for a most informative answer (I didn't expect the question would generate such heat!) There are obviously a number of ways of expressing the idea, so am grateful to everyone for their suggestions, but I've given you the points for the information you've provided.

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
neutral  Jane Lamb-Ruiz (X): there is no mention of salaries in my answer: payroll taxes yes...I asked for clarification from the Poster and got it from you. Your list of items boils down to: payroll taxes and employer contributions..I don't understand the problem
3 hrs
  -> The "salaries" aspect is often far MORE than just "payroll taxes and social contributions". And VAT liabilities doesn't fall into your definition at all. The problem is you nitpicking other answers, while your own wording never appears as a line item...

agree  Charlie Bavington (X): You can't find any "solid factual information"? God help us when you really get your teeth into something :-) Fine work. I fail to see how any Asker could, er, ask for more. If I could agree twice, I would :-)
8 hrs
  -> Thanks for the support, but the "solid factual information" is only two examples of how accountants use the item in practice. This doesn't mean it is "true" for all French balance sheets, and I still wonder about how common the "dividends payable" is
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