guerre en dentelles

English translation: Lace Wars

GLOSSARY ENTRY (DERIVED FROM QUESTION BELOW)
French term or phrase:guerre en dentelles
English translation:Lace Wars
Entered by: Pol O Gradaigh

21:34 Jun 14, 2007
French to English translations [PRO]
Art/Literary - History / military history
French term or phrase: guerre en dentelles
Literally, "war in lace [collars]"; the term refers, per the Petit Robert, to warfare "telle qu'on la faisait au XVIIe ou au XVIIIe siècle, avec des officiers vetus de dentelles et se rendant force politesses". I should add that my text is using it metaphorically (and in inverted commas) for the war between rival princes in mediaeval Iran. My provisional translation is "gentleman's war", but I wonder is there anything closer available.
Pol O Gradaigh
Local time: 18:57
Lace Wars
Explanation:
"Lace Wars" seems to be a well-established form, so why try to improve on it?

Lace Wars: Warfare in the age of Reason, 1649 - 1783Including, but not limited to, the wars of Turenne, Conde, Luxembourg, Marlborough, Eugene of Savoy, Peter the Great, Charles XII, Frederich the Great and ...
k.webring.com/hub?ring=lacewars;rss

Film: The Lace Wars (1965)

Lace Wars is a set of wargames rules that cover the period of European conflict between 1660s until the 1720s, taking in Louis XIV wars against the Dutch, ...
www.nsalmon.btinternet.co.uk/LW/intro.htm

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Note added at 2 hrs (2007-06-15 00:02:15 GMT)
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Book: Lace Wars: Warfare in the age of Reason, 1649 - 1783 © 2007 WebRing Inc. Lace Wars: Warfare in the age of Reason, 1649 - 1783 ...
ss.webring.com/navbar?f=l;y=hwiccee;u=1004412

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Note added at 2 hrs (2007-06-15 00:04:11 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Actual translation: The French At War, 1700-1789. ... frippery was so extravagant that its campaigns were known by contemporaries as “The Lace Wars” (Les Guerres a Dentelle). ...
www.wargamer.com/articles/18c_fr_main.asp
Selected response from:

Robert Frankling
Local time: 12:57
Grading comment
This certainly seems like the right answer from a terminological point of view; I'm reluctant to use it in this case not because it's not Iranian but because it seems very specifically French, and the text is being published for the first time in English and aimed at a primarily anglophone or at least international readership.
4 KudoZ points were awarded for this answer



Summary of answers provided
4 +3Lace Wars
Robert Frankling
4gentlemans' war
Christopher Crockett
3doublet wars
Euqinimod (X)
3wars of sartorial refinement
Bourth (X)
3"Courtly war"
James Roberts
4 -1cortesan war
myrcarromero
2Aristocratic War
blavatsky
1shah wars
Alain Pommet


Discussion entries: 2





  

Answers


26 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5 peer agreement (net): -1
cortesan war


Explanation:
H.

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Note added at 29 mins (2007-06-14 22:03:25 GMT)
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Sorry with u, courtesan war

myrcarromero
Local time: 10:57
Native speaker of: Native in SpanishSpanish

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
disagree  Tony M: No, that sounds like prostitutes and 'handbags at dawn'!
5 hrs
  -> Oh, disgusting! I tried to use the expression of JAmes (courtly war).When I write it, I had the same doubt as you.
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45 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 3/5Answerer confidence 3/5
"Courtly war"


Explanation:
As a suggestion only, how about this as a play on the idea of "courtly love".

James Roberts
Local time: 18:57
Works in field
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
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2 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5 peer agreement (net): +3
Lace Wars


Explanation:
"Lace Wars" seems to be a well-established form, so why try to improve on it?

Lace Wars: Warfare in the age of Reason, 1649 - 1783Including, but not limited to, the wars of Turenne, Conde, Luxembourg, Marlborough, Eugene of Savoy, Peter the Great, Charles XII, Frederich the Great and ...
k.webring.com/hub?ring=lacewars;rss

Film: The Lace Wars (1965)

Lace Wars is a set of wargames rules that cover the period of European conflict between 1660s until the 1720s, taking in Louis XIV wars against the Dutch, ...
www.nsalmon.btinternet.co.uk/LW/intro.htm

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2 hrs (2007-06-15 00:02:15 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Book: Lace Wars: Warfare in the age of Reason, 1649 - 1783 © 2007 WebRing Inc. Lace Wars: Warfare in the age of Reason, 1649 - 1783 ...
ss.webring.com/navbar?f=l;y=hwiccee;u=1004412

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2 hrs (2007-06-15 00:04:11 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Actual translation: The French At War, 1700-1789. ... frippery was so extravagant that its campaigns were known by contemporaries as “The Lace Wars” (Les Guerres a Dentelle). ...
www.wargamer.com/articles/18c_fr_main.asp

Robert Frankling
Local time: 12:57
Native speaker of: English
PRO pts in category: 8
Grading comment
This certainly seems like the right answer from a terminological point of view; I'm reluctant to use it in this case not because it's not Iranian but because it seems very specifically French, and the text is being published for the first time in English and aimed at a primarily anglophone or at least international readership.
Notes to answerer
Asker: The precise phrase is "Il ne s’agit plus ici d’une “guerre en dentelle” entre deux princes, mais d’un pillage sauvage et d’une remise en question de l’ordre social par des groupes marginalisés."


Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  Tony M: Well, I AM surprised! I though this was all about old ladies throwing bobbins at each other across the street, but apparently I was wrong!
3 hrs
  -> You must be thinking of "Arsenic and Old Lace"...Cary Grant,Raymond Massey,Peter Lorre

neutral  James Roberts: "Lace wars" is certainly standard for 18th century wars (at least among wargamers and re-enactors, if not necessarily serious historians). But we are in medieval Iran here, where wars were fought in chainmail and armour, not lace.
6 hrs
  -> good point

neutral  Christopher Crockett: An excellent translation and, apparently, the accepted term for the phenomenon (in a European context), but I've never seen it before and, as James says, the period and location of Pol's text are inappropriate for it.
12 hrs
  -> What would the Iranian history community call this? Did Iranian potentates have a distinction of dress?

agree  Julie Barber: As for it being 'inappropriate' - perhaps the writer's observation was 'inappropriate'? this is the wording that they have chosen to use (maybe through European eyes). Perhaps 'lace style wars' would do then to avoid direct reference to Europe!
19 hrs

agree  jean-jacques alexandre: & left in inverted commas
1 day 10 hrs
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9 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 3/5Answerer confidence 3/5
wars of sartorial refinement


Explanation:
if that gets round the problem of lace not being Persian ...

Guerre en dentelles = Saville row?

Bourth (X)
Local time: 19:57
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in category: 154

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
neutral  Julie Barber: I'm not disagreeing with your answer as such but the writer has chosen not to use a Persian version.....perhaps they want the reference to be easily recognisable to somebody European? \ but I much liked Saville Row!!
12 hrs
  -> ??? My point precisely!
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10 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 3/5Answerer confidence 3/5
doublet wars


Explanation:
Taking into account James Robert's note, why not coin this new compound, as I found in the OE that a doublet was of a body-armour of metal plates covered with cloth or leather, sometimes referred to as "brigandine" and described as "‘Body armour composed of iron rings or small thin iron plates, sewed upon canvas, linen, or leather, and covered over with similar materials’

Euqinimod (X)
Local time: 19:57
Works in field
Native speaker of: Native in FrenchFrench
PRO pts in category: 8
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11 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 1/5Answerer confidence 1/5
shah wars


Explanation:
Sorry, I couldn't resist that one.

Alain Pommet
Local time: 19:57
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in category: 4

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
neutral  James Roberts: Can you hear the groans from across the Channel? ;-)
20 mins
  -> Well you're the far-seer and hearer not me - but almost!

neutral  Christopher Crockett: From across the ocean: Ouch.
4 hrs
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15 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5
gentlemans' war


Explanation:
I can't improve on your first thought.

Though it's not my period, I've done a bit of work in early modern history and have never come across the term "Lace War" (so, will your readers?).

And I agree with James and don't think that that Euro-specific term would be applicable to medieval Iran.

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Note added at 16 hrs (2007-06-15 13:51:18 GMT)
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"Gentlemen's war," obviously.

I hate it when that happens.

Christopher Crockett
Local time: 13:57
Specializes in field
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in category: 100
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1 day 1 hr   confidence: Answerer confidence 2/5Answerer confidence 2/5
Aristocratic War


Explanation:
because lace is mentioned, and because of metaphorical usuage

blavatsky
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in category: 4
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