ascendance chronologique

English translation: timeframe

GLOSSARY ENTRY (DERIVED FROM QUESTION BELOW)
French term or phrase:ascendance chronologique
English translation:timeframe
Entered by: Barbara Cochran, MFA

23:36 Jan 21, 2008
French to English translations [PRO]
History / Architectural Description
French term or phrase: ascendance chronologique
In a description of San Claudio Chapel. I'm drawing a blank on the best way to state this phrase, given the context. They are talking about trying to determine just when the chapel was built, I believe.

Contexte:

"Si les voûtes d'arêtes ont fait penser au style roman, la volumétrie de l'ensemble, indépendamment de l'antéglise ou solium ajouté par la suite, exige une **ascendance chronologique** différente, parce que l'assemblage rythmique et la superposition de 10 absides et 16 croisées, produit une masse composée de manière classique et substantiellement respecteuse du rapport de la reglè d'or des proportions entre la base et la hauteur."

Merci beaucoup!

femme
Barbara Cochran, MFA
United States
Local time: 06:48
timeframe
Explanation:
I think it will work without a qualifyng adjective since the context makes it clear, but you could say any number of things, I suppose:

- constructional timeframe
- inspirational timeframe
- conceptual timeframe
- architectural timeframe
- stylistic timeframe, etc.

It's not clear to me if they are saying this place WAS built at such-and-such a time, using the customs of the time, or simply LOOKS AS IF IT MIGHT HAVE BEEN built at that time, having taken inspiration and architectural elements from that time. Hence my hesitation over a qualifying adjective.

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Note added at 39 mins (2008-01-22 00:16:27 GMT)
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Is this about determining the authenticity of Aix la Chapelle as Charlemagne's Aix? A brief look at the web (haven't read in detail) suggests that some think his Aix was in fact in Italy and that legend transposed it to "Aix la Chapelle" for political reasons. Is this "chapelle San Claudio" in Italy? And are there doubts about ITS historical authenticity?
Puzzled.
Selected response from:

Bourth (X)
Local time: 11:48
Grading comment
Thank you very much!
4 KudoZ points were awarded for this answer



Summary of answers provided
4 +6timeframe
Bourth (X)
5 +1chronological ancestry
Chris Hall
5chronological provenance
Carol Gullidge
4 +1architectural lineage
Christopher Crockett
3 +1historical genealogy
MatthewLaSon
4chronological line
Diego Metzadour


Discussion entries: 1





  

Answers


8 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 5/5 peer agreement (net): +1
chronological ancestry


Explanation:
This seems to work with the tone of the sentence.

Chris Hall
Local time: 10:48
Native speaker of: English

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
neutral  writeaway: refs? how does ancestry fit in with the context?
3 mins

agree  Jennifer Levey: In a figurative sense, yes, this works. Indeed, the first thought I had was 'genealogy'. That said, 'chronological ancestry' is a bit tautological - why not just 'ancestry'?
24 mins
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32 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5 peer agreement (net): +6
timeframe


Explanation:
I think it will work without a qualifyng adjective since the context makes it clear, but you could say any number of things, I suppose:

- constructional timeframe
- inspirational timeframe
- conceptual timeframe
- architectural timeframe
- stylistic timeframe, etc.

It's not clear to me if they are saying this place WAS built at such-and-such a time, using the customs of the time, or simply LOOKS AS IF IT MIGHT HAVE BEEN built at that time, having taken inspiration and architectural elements from that time. Hence my hesitation over a qualifying adjective.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 39 mins (2008-01-22 00:16:27 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Is this about determining the authenticity of Aix la Chapelle as Charlemagne's Aix? A brief look at the web (haven't read in detail) suggests that some think his Aix was in fact in Italy and that legend transposed it to "Aix la Chapelle" for political reasons. Is this "chapelle San Claudio" in Italy? And are there doubts about ITS historical authenticity?
Puzzled.

Bourth (X)
Local time: 11:48
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in category: 154
Grading comment
Thank you very much!

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  writeaway: yes, this works well in the context
1 min

agree  emiledgar
2 hrs

agree  Etienne Muylle Wallace
3 hrs

agree  Cervin
7 hrs

agree  Bashiqa: timeframe or timescale
8 hrs

agree  Christopher Crockett: Yes, it's an "architectural timeframe" that they're talking about, presumably a pre-"romanesque" one.
13 hrs
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1 hr   confidence: Answerer confidence 3/5Answerer confidence 3/5 peer agreement (net): +1
historical genealogy


Explanation:
Hello,

I"ve seen this used before. They are referring to the historical genealogy of the church. They want to go back in history to trace its roots.

By the way, genealogy isn't just used for tracing the lineage of people.

I hope this helps.


    Reference: http://www.deceptioninthechurch.com/orrel12.html
MatthewLaSon
Local time: 06:48
Works in field
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  Christopher Crockett: Yes, that's the idea, but I prefer "[architectural] lineage" in this context (see my answer).
12 hrs
  -> Thanks, Christopher! I don't care for "timeframe" here, although not wrong. Your translation may indeed be fine.
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6 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5
chronological line


Explanation:
just like that. It follows the tone of the text.

Diego Metzadour
Local time: 07:48
Native speaker of: Native in SpanishSpanish
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10 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 5/5
chronological provenance


Explanation:
this fits!

File Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat - View as HTML
a post office, a school and a chapel. Changes to the appearance of buildings ..... but it is not possible to confirm their precise chronological provenance. ...
www.tynedale.gov.uk/residents/showdesc.asp?id=221



Rabbinic Law in Its Roman and Near Eastern Context - Google Books Result

by Catherine Hezser - 2003 - Religion - 310 pages
61 While the exact chronological provenance of these fictions cannot always be determined, the fact that such statements are already attested in the ...
books.google.com/books?isbn=3161480716...

[DOC]

Supplemental Information (Part A)

File Format: Microsoft Word - View as HTML
In terms of specific date bias, virtually all the bones from AK-YT in museums have no stratigraphic or chronological provenance. Within species, bones were ...
www.nature.com/nature/journal/v441/n7090/extref/nature04604... - Similar pages



Kuru kings, Tura Ka:vas 1eya, and the -tva{ya gerund

Regarding the chronological provenance of this liturgical material there. are two possibilities; either it was in existence at the time the RV collections ...
journals.cambridge.org/article_S0041977X03000120 - Similar pages



The Monarchic Principle: Studies in Jewish Self-Government in ... - Google Books Result

by David M. Goodblatt - 1994 - Religion
In determining the chronological provenance of the rabbinic traditions I adopt the following procedure. The date of a document in which the source appears ...
books.google.com/books?isbn=3161461762...

Carol Gullidge
United Kingdom
Local time: 10:48
Specializes in field
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in category: 35

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
neutral  Christopher Crockett: I don't think he's talking about "provenance" here, but rather the architctural *lineage* (see my answer). And, now see my note appended to my answer.
3 hrs
  -> I think architectural provenance is just what he's talking about! But "architectural" is implied (in the context), so not needed, and the term uses "chronologique"//Provenance means the source, whereas lineage = ancestry, already posted by Christopher H.
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14 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5 peer agreement (net): +1
architectural lineage


Explanation:
The only way I could get at the sense of it was to try and translate the whole thing (sorry):

Although the groin vaults are suggestive of Romanesque, the volumetric arrangement --aside from the forechurch [or "Westwerk," if that's what it is] or "solium" [I've never seen this word, btw], which was added later-- suggests a different architectural lineage, its rythmic assembly of the forms of the 10 apses and 16 bays producing a quite "classical" massing which shows a respect for the Golden Rule in the proportions of the ground plan relative to the elevation.

----

On SOLIUM (O.E.D.):

Obsolete.

[< Latin, _solium_.]

A seat, throne.

13th c. : He sete on Salamones solie, on solemne wyse.
1678 : Fro e soly of his solempnete, his solace he leues.

As I say, I've never seen this word in the Art Hysterical literature (including that in French), the OED says it's "obsolete," it's unknown to the _Tresor de la langue francaise_ and I can't find a website which uses it in an architectural context, so I wouldn't use it in the translation (it could be this author's "invention").

I know what he's driving at, however, since the massive "Westwerks" (the German term appears in both the English and French literature) at the front (West) end of many Carolingian, Ottonnian and even Romanesque churches originally served (it is thought) primarily to house an upper chapel where, on significant liturgical ocassions, the Emperor (or his surrogate, a prince, bishop or abbot) would sit (enthrowned), watching the proceedings in the choir, down the length of the nave, through large windows or an arcade in the East wall of the Westwerk.

So, your "solium" here is a kind of "throneroom" (though I certainly wouldn't use that word, either).

Some nice examples of Westwerken are at the bottome of this page:

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westwerk

The *massive* one at Corvey:

http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grafika:Corvey_Westwerk.png

and here's an example of your "solium," seen from the East:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/de/a/ae/Köln_Pantaleon...

I assume that your "San Claudio Chapel" (wherever that is) had some kind of (perhaps rather modest) Westwerk --or, perhaps the chapel was *in* the Westwerk??

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Note added at 14 hrs (2008-01-22 14:02:13 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Strickly speaking, I assume that the plural of Westwerk is Westwerken, so don't use that "Westwerks" which I did.

Do as I say do, not as I did.

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Note added at 14 hrs (2008-01-22 14:04:47 GMT)
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And, the Emperor was "enthroned," rather than "enthrowned."

I *hate* it when that happens.

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Note added at 14 hrs (2008-01-22 14:09:07 GMT)
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I've convinced myself of the essential Rightness of my answer, and would like to change my Confidence Level to a 5.

But don't see any way to do that....

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Note added at 15 hrs (2008-01-22 14:41:09 GMT)
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Note to Carol:

I objected to your use of "provenance" in this context because, in Art History, that word has a rather specific use:

[OED]

PROVENANCE

3. The history of the ownership of a work of art or an antique, used as a guide to authenticity or quality; a documented record of this.
A distinction is sometimes drawn between the ‘origin’ and the ‘provenance’ of an article, as in quot. 1960.

1867 Times 7 Sept. 12/4 Other studies for Titian's ‘Battle of Cadore’ are extant, and their ‘provenance’ from the late Dr. Wellesley's collection is strongly in favour of their authenticity. 1926 J. BUCHAN Dancing Floor I. vi. 111 If I knew the provenance of the manuscript, I might be able to understand it better. 1946 ‘M. INNES’ From London Far II. x. 146 That aspect of the history of art which collectors call provenance? Who owned the picture last..and who before that. The ideal is to trace it right back to the studio.
1960 E. A. LOWE Eng. Uncial 21 A Canterbury origin is probable, Canterbury provenance is certain. 1967 J. N. BARRON Lang. of Painting 156 Provenance, a history or pedigree of a painting: the establishment of the identity of successive owners since its execution. Also included would be all published documents, catalogues, and journals that contain references to the painting, along with reproductions, exhibitions, and sales records, as well as correspondence, especially of the artist, in which mention of it may be made. 1989 L. DEIGHTON Spy Line xv. 208, I know what he's after: a written statement about the clock's condition and history. That sort of provenance affects the price in auction. 2003 Wired July 43/3 A panel of experts..declined to authenticate the canvas. Without knowing its provenance..they can't be sure Horton's find is legit.


In an Art Historical context, oOur text is speaking of a "lineage," not a "provenance."

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Note added at 15 hrs (2008-01-22 14:55:36 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Here's the TLF:

ASCENDANCE:

Ligne généalogique par laquelle on remonte du fils au père, du père à l'aïeul, etc....

P. méton. Généalogie, lignée d'ancêtres...


In an Art Historical context, I prefer to translate "ascendance chronologique" as "lineage" (the "chronologique" is understood).

Art Hysterians frequently speak of an "architectural [or stylistic] lineage" --which is *definitely* not the same as a "provenance," or even an "origin."

The terms differ perhaps only slightly in general usage, but within the Discipline there is a sure technical distinction between them.

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Note added at 15 hrs (2008-01-22 15:16:10 GMT)
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Don't believe everything you see on the web.

Regarding Carol's references, a Google turns up a paltry *89* hits for the "chronological provenance," not a *one* of them appearing in an Art Historical context.

Specifically, this one

www.tynedale.gov.uk/residents/showdesc.asp?id=221

is just plain *wrong* in its use of the term "provenance" :

"There will be buildings of a similar age in Ovington and buildings that possibly incorporate remnants of even earlier structures, but it is not possible to confirm their precise chronological provenance."

Here the town council bureaucrat clearly means the chronological "sequence" of the buildings, not their "provenance."

Contrary to what the Red Queen (or was it the Catapillar??) said, Words do have Meanings.



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Note added at 16 hrs (2008-01-22 16:23:08 GMT)
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Well, Carol, my "refs" are mostly buried in my 40 years experience as a (medieval) Art Historian, which I tend to trust just a *bit* more than a paltry number of Googled websites, written by unknown folks of dubious educational background who, apparently, share your Red Queenis/Caterpillar (I never can remember which one it was) view that "Words Mean Whatever I Say They Mean."

Au contraire, ma frere, Words have (or *can* have/*should* have) very precise Meanings, especially when used within the context of a particular Discipline.

As is the case with femme's source --which I take to be a more or less serious study of an interesting and complex Art Hysterical Question (as opposed to, say, some ephemeral Tourist Brochure).




    Reference: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westwerk
    Reference: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/de/a/ae/K%C3%B6ln_Pant...
Christopher Crockett
Local time: 06:48
Specializes in field
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in category: 100

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
neutral  Carol Gullidge: response to yr note: I'm not talking about ownership (NOR ARE MY REFS!) but origins//Not yelling! UC = only so you'd see it! Where r yr refs to support your answer, as opposed to everything but the term in question?
45 mins
  -> Yes, I *know* that you are talking about "origins." And you are misusing the term, esp. in an Art Historical context. I've checked your refs! and found them Wanting, which is NOT my fault. Please don't YELL at me.

agree  MatthewLaSon: This does sound right to me. You shouldn't be alone in the jungle here...lol
8 hrs
  -> Yes, it's lonely here in the canopy. Thanks, Mathew.
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