hors de tout rang

English translation: extraordinary (member)

GLOSSARY ENTRY (DERIVED FROM QUESTION BELOW)
French term or phrase:hors de tout rang
English translation:extraordinary (member)
Entered by: Charles Davis

14:59 Apr 26, 2017
French to English translations [PRO]
Social Sciences - History
French term or phrase: hors de tout rang
I'm translating a text about Peter the Great and his relations with France:

"Le 22 décembre 1717, l’Académie royale des sciences élit Pierre membre honoraire « hors de tout rang »".

The terme "hors de tout rang" seems to be taken directly from the Académie's site: "Pierre I, dit Le Grand
30 mai/9 juin 1672 à Moscou - 28 janvier/8 février 1725 à Saint-Pétersbourg. Associé étranger *hors de tout rang* le 22 décembre 1717".

It's unfortunately not translated on their site: http://www.academie-sciences.fr/fr/Liste-des-membres-depuis-...

I can't figure out how to say this in English. Any ideas, or should I just keep the French?

UK English ok.

Thanks in advance!
Diana Huet de Guerville
France
Local time: 12:57
extraordinary (member)
Explanation:
I think I will after all suggest this, on the understanding that I would like to keep the French expression as well, though working it all into the sentence will take some thought.

As I've mentioned in the discussion, membership "hors de tout rang" seems to be extremely rare and Peter may be the only example in France. Extraordinary membership of academies, on the other hand, is not all that uncommon. However, I think it has the advantage, at least, of conveying the idea of being outside the usual categories, or at least it can be interpreted that way.

I am emboldened to suggest it by the fact that it is used by an eminent historian B. H. Sumner, who was Warden of All Souls in Oxford, in a volume on Peter the Great and the Emergence of Russia published in 1951:

"He directed particular attention to the Academy of Sciences, of which he was elected an extraordinary member."
https://archive.org/stream/in.ernet.dli.2015.505859/2015.505...
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Charles Davis
Spain
Local time: 12:57
Grading comment
Selected automatically based on peer agreement.
4 KudoZ points were awarded for this answer



Summary of answers provided
4 +1hors de tout rang
mrrafe
3 +2extraordinary (member)
Charles Davis
3an unranked, honorary member
Christopher Crockett


Discussion entries: 17





  

Answers


49 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5 peer agreement (net): +1
hors de tout rang


Explanation:
The second link shows another English language author leaving it untranslated. The second link shows it as a military expression.

For me it has no meaning, except perhaps that Pyotr was designated on some honorary, irregular basis because he didn't "come up through the ranks" (as we say) as a credentialed scientist, similar to receiving a degree honoris causa without having matriculated.

But there are two problems with this theory: I thought he really was a scientist; and your original already mentions honoraire, so "hors de rang" used in that sense would be repetitive.

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Note added at 54 mins (2017-04-26 15:53:54 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Sorry, meant to say the FIRST link shows another English author.


    https://books.google.com/books?id=QsceBAAAQBAJ&pg=PT132&lpg=PT132&dq=hors+de+tout+rang&source=bl&ots=zh33B_qLAC&sig=vnBRBdmAwcEpEFioekbuUHXP
    https://fr.wiktionary.org/wiki/rang
mrrafe
United States
Local time: 07:57
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in category: 3

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  philgoddard: Now that we know it's for a museum display, I think Charles' solution is slightly better. But you didn't know that, and this would still be good in some contexts.
2 hrs
  -> yes
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2 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 3/5Answerer confidence 3/5 peer agreement (net): +2
extraordinary (member)


Explanation:
I think I will after all suggest this, on the understanding that I would like to keep the French expression as well, though working it all into the sentence will take some thought.

As I've mentioned in the discussion, membership "hors de tout rang" seems to be extremely rare and Peter may be the only example in France. Extraordinary membership of academies, on the other hand, is not all that uncommon. However, I think it has the advantage, at least, of conveying the idea of being outside the usual categories, or at least it can be interpreted that way.

I am emboldened to suggest it by the fact that it is used by an eminent historian B. H. Sumner, who was Warden of All Souls in Oxford, in a volume on Peter the Great and the Emergence of Russia published in 1951:

"He directed particular attention to the Academy of Sciences, of which he was elected an extraordinary member."
https://archive.org/stream/in.ernet.dli.2015.505859/2015.505...

Charles Davis
Spain
Local time: 12:57
Specializes in field
Native speaker of: English
PRO pts in category: 40
Grading comment
Selected automatically based on peer agreement.

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  philgoddard: Good idea, though I take anything said by Oxonians with a pinch of salt :-)
36 mins
  -> Probably wise :-) Thanks!

agree  ph-b (X)
1 hr
  -> Many thanks!
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44 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 3/5Answerer confidence 3/5
an unranked, honorary member


Explanation:
This is fudging a bit, but I don't know of another way to say it.

Peter was without an official "rank" (i.e., he did not hold an endowed fauteuil, nor was he an "Académicien-Associé"), but merely an honorary member.

This was --perhaps (I have no idea really)-- because he was, after all, not a Frenchman but a Russian; and, presumably, only Frenchmen could qualify as "ranked" or even associate members.

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Note added at 1 hr (2017-04-26 16:09:06 GMT)
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Phil makes a good point; and surely Peter the Great qualified "eminent" (if you like that sort of fellow).

I was assuming that "honorary" members were those who had achieved "eminence" in their own field, but who were, nevertheless, precluded from actual membership due to other factors (e.g., nationality or gender).

Newton, for example, might well have been an Honorary Member of the Academie Francaise (was he, btw?).

The question then becomes whether or not the "rang" which Peter was hors of refers to that of his political attainments or to his "ranking" within the context of the academy in question.

I assumed (from the syntax of the source sentence) that it was the latter; but Phil might well be right (if I understand him correctly) and it may be that "hors rang" does indeed refer to his general "transcendance" --in which case it needs to be translated that way.

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Note added at 3 hrs (2017-04-26 18:14:25 GMT)
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In view of our discussion above (and the fine explanatory texts which Charles has found), how about something like:

"On the 22nd of December, 1717, the French Royal Academy of Sciences made Peter an honorary member, with the special distinction of being 'hors de tout rang'"

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Note added at 3 hrs (2017-04-26 18:20:18 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Add a bit of supplementary icing on that somewhat obscure cake:

"...of being 'hors de tout rang,' the highest level of membership which the Academy could bestow."

Christopher Crockett
Local time: 07:57
Specializes in field
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in category: 100

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
neutral  philgoddard: This is a good approximation if you decide to translate it, though it doesn't convey what I presume is the idea that he's so eminent that he transcends all ranks.
5 mins
  -> Yes, it really defies translation; it's wonderfully vague French in the way that only French can be wonderfully Vague --linguistic cotton candy. I don't think that his transcendant eminance is necessarily implied here, however. Thanks, Phil.

neutral  mrrafe: "It's good to be the King." - Mel Brooks
18 mins
  -> Well, the question is, is it hors rang to be king --or are we just dealing with a king who is hors rang within the academy? Is that question even answerable? Thanks mrrafe.
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