qui ont qualité pour en connaître

English translation: other than those entitled to have knowledge (of them)

GLOSSARY ENTRY (DERIVED FROM QUESTION BELOW)
French term or phrase:d\'autres ... que celles qui ont qualité pour en connaître
English translation:other than those entitled to have knowledge (of them)
Entered by: Thomas Miles

07:07 Aug 6, 2018
French to English translations [PRO]
Law/Patents - Law: Contract(s) / public procurement contract
French term or phrase: qui ont qualité pour en connaître
Within a public procurement contract, we find an article dealing with the successful tenderer's obligations of discretion. One paragraph states:

"Ces renseignements, documents ou objets ne peuvent, sans autorisation du maître d'ouvrage, être communiqués à d'autres personnes qui ont qualité pour en connaître."

The bulk of the straightforward sentence seems to be partly contradicted in the way that "d'autres personnes" are limited to those "qui ont qualité pour en connaître" modifies . I can understand how the information should not be transmitted to others, but why then define these others as those who in fact have the capacity.

Thanks for your guidance.
Thomas Miles
France
Local time: 15:46
other than those entitled to have knowledge of them
Explanation:
There are two vital words missing from the text as you quote it!

"Ces renseignements, documents ou objets ne peuvent, sans autorisation de la personne responsable du marché, être communiqués à d'autres personnes que celles qui ont qualité pour en connaître."
http://www.marche-public.fr/Marches-publics/Textes/CCAG/CCAG...

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Note added at 54 mins (2018-08-06 08:02:32 GMT)
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If those words are missing in the actual document you have been given to translate, you should bring that omission to the client's attention.
Selected response from:

B D Finch
France
Local time: 15:46
Grading comment
Glossary entry adjusted to reflect the error. Thanks to you.
4 KudoZ points were awarded for this answer



Summary of answers provided
5 +5other than those entitled to have knowledge of them
B D Finch
2entitled to have knowledge thereof
Kevin Oheix
Summary of reference entries provided
Sense and nonsense
Daryo

Discussion entries: 13





  

Answers


52 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 5/5 peer agreement (net): +5
<b>que celles</b> qui ont qualité pour en connaître
other than those entitled to have knowledge of them


Explanation:
There are two vital words missing from the text as you quote it!

"Ces renseignements, documents ou objets ne peuvent, sans autorisation de la personne responsable du marché, être communiqués à d'autres personnes que celles qui ont qualité pour en connaître."
http://www.marche-public.fr/Marches-publics/Textes/CCAG/CCAG...

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 54 mins (2018-08-06 08:02:32 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

If those words are missing in the actual document you have been given to translate, you should bring that omission to the client's attention.

B D Finch
France
Local time: 15:46
Specializes in field
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in category: 317
2 corroborated select projects
in this pair and field What is ProZ.com Project History(SM)?
Grading comment
Glossary entry adjusted to reflect the error. Thanks to you.
Notes to answerer
Asker: Thank you for shedding some light on this confusing sentence. A commentary is already planned for the client, and I shall include this issue therein!


Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  Tony M: Absolutely! Anyone working with 'marchés publics' will be familiar with the correct standard wording here, the source text obviously contains an error — sadly all too common, even in important texts :-(
9 mins
  -> Thanks Tony. I rarely use CL5, but thought this justified it!// Generally due to careless cutting and pasting.

disagree  mchd: c'est une extrapolation du texte français : "que celles" ne figure pas dans la demande d'origine, à juste titre d'ailleurs ! // "standard public procurement" sans doute, mais il faut aussi bien lire le contexte !
27 mins
  -> It's a standard public procurement, boilerplate text and it would make no sense to omit "que celles".

agree  Nikki Scott-Despaigne: This does indeed need to be queried with the client. // Edit: It can only make sense this way. A quick little "thereof" rather than "of them", at the end, perhaps? ;-)
1 hr
  -> That would be a good idea.//Thanks Nikki. I admit to using "thereof" and "hereof", but I just didn't like "thereof" here and preferred the more plain English version. Either would do.

agree  AllegroTrans: Must be correct (i.e. some words missing), no other sensible explanation
3 hrs
  -> Thanks AT

agree  philgoddard: You could express it more concisely as "may not be shared with unauthorised third parties".
4 hrs
  -> Possibly, but, as a risk-avoidance strategy, I tend to avoid rewording legal documents where it's possible to translate them adequately without rewording.

agree  Daryo: the ST as it is doesn't make any real life sense - sounds like a recipe for a disaster waiting to happen - your proposed correction makes perfect sense.
5 hrs
  -> Thanks Daryo

agree  Yvonne Gallagher
5 hrs
  -> Thanks Yvonne

neutral  Germaine: It might very well be what is meant, but it certainly doesn't translate the original.// But does it make no sense? or does it make no sense to you? My point is: first, you translate; second, you offer what makes sense to you.
11 hrs
  -> If the original makes no sense as it stands, and if it's obvious what the error is, then the translator should inform the client while offering a translation that makes sense and that can be justified by the context and likely intention of the writer.
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3 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 2/5Answerer confidence 2/5
entitled to have knowledge thereof


Explanation:
"... shall not be disclosed to outside parties entitled (with legal capacity) to have knowledge thereof"

capacité (personnes) = aptitude, compétence

have (legal) capacity, qualified

Ici, habilité à exercer un droit, donc "entitled", "authorized", "empowered".

Kevin Oheix
France
Local time: 15:46
Works in field
Native speaker of: Native in FrenchFrench
PRO pts in category: 4

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
neutral  writeaway: how does this different in essence from the first answer?
16 mins
  -> My guess - "autres personnes" = outside parties

neutral  Daryo: just a variation on the previous answer - but you ignored the really important part - as it is the ST makes no sense.
2 hrs

neutral  Nikki Scott-Despaigne: I've just added "thereof" and hadn't taken in that that was the modif' you were suggesting here. However, "outside parties" seems is an over-translation for "d'autres personnes" here. Also, with client's agreement, "que celles" needs to be added.
2 hrs

neutral  Tony M: ...and they might not be 'outside' parties — all we know for sure is that they are parties 'other than' the parties to this agreement.
8 hrs
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Reference comments


6 hrs
Reference: Sense and nonsense

Reference information:
The model clause:

7.1.3 - Secret professionnel

Le titulaire est tenu au secret professionnel pour tout ce qui a trait aux renseignements et documents recueillis au cours de la mission. Ces renseignements ou documents ne peuvent, sans autorisation, être communiqués à d’autres personnes que celles qui ont qualité pour en connaître.

Le titulaire s’interdit d’utiliser les documents qui lui sont confiés à d’autres fins que celles qui sont prévues au marché.

Ces renseignements ou documents ne peuvent, sans autorisation, être communiqués à d’autres personnes que celles qui ont qualité pour en connaître.
=
only those who need to know will be made privy to the confidential information

https://www.lemoniteur.fr/article/modele-du-marche-public-de...


This ST:
"Ces renseignements, documents ou objets ne peuvent, sans autorisation du maître d'ouvrage, être communiqués à d'autres personnes qui ont qualité pour en connaître."
=
if someone else needs this information and is authorised to have it, you will still need the approval of s.o. else [ere the project owner] to pass it => you open the possibility for someone to be operating blindly, after being deprived of information he/she is entitled to know.

Any project organised this way is likely to end in tears / monumental ***** / avoidable accidents / chaos ....

Daryo
United Kingdom
Specializes in field
Native speaker of: Native in SerbianSerbian, Native in FrenchFrench
PRO pts in category: 82
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