du droit des poursuites

English translation: the law on debt enforcement

GLOSSARY ENTRY (DERIVED FROM QUESTION BELOW)
French term or phrase:du droit des poursuites
English translation:the law on debt enforcement
Entered by: Stephanie Mitchel

22:45 Nov 19, 2018
French to English translations [PRO]
Law/Patents - Law (general) / divorce court
French term or phrase: du droit des poursuites
Hello all, it's entirely possible my brain is Swiss-cheesed and I can no longer pick apart syntax. In that case, I apologize for wasting your time. However I'm trying to figure out the following sentence in the context of a Swiss court's decision on which spouse is to pay how much for child support and the living expenses of the other spouse.

"Lorsque le revenu total des conjoints dépasse leur minimum vital du droit des poursuites, le solde disponible peut, en principle, être réparti à parts égales entre les époux, chaque conjoint ayant le droit de participer d'une manière identique au train de vie antérieur."

Does 'du droit des poursuites' mean 'as established in the proceedings' or is it referring to basic living expenses as determined by a subcategory of law - or something else?
Stephanie Mitchel
United States
Local time: 18:06
the law on debt enforcement
Explanation:
https://legalonline.ch/droit-des-poursuites/
"Le droit des poursuites permet d’obtenir le payement de ce qui vous est dû. Il prévoit également vos moyens de défense lorsque quelqu’un vous réclame de l’argent. "

https://www.scotlawcom.gov.uk/index.php/download_file/view/1...
24 sept. 1999 - Luxembourg. Switzerland. ...... proceedings, aliment, and financial provision on divorce or nullity of marriage. 7.7 ...... The Federal Law on Debt Enforcement and Bankruptcy of 1889, as amended, regulates debt enforcement.

This is about the minimum financial threshold below which people cannot be pursued for debt. Once the spouses' joint income passes that threshold, the surplus is divided between them, each of them having the right to enjoy the same standard of living as before.

It seems that this law varies from canton to canton.

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Note added at 11 hrs (2018-11-20 10:40:03 GMT)
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https://www.admin.ch/ch/f/gg/pc/documents/2075/Rapport_entre...
Le projet de modification du code civil sur le droit d'entretien de l'enfant ...... en ce sens que le minimum vital de celui-ci selon le droit des poursuites doit ... RS 281.1; Loi fédérale du 11 avril 1889 sur la poursuite pour dettes et la faillite (LP).

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Note added at 16 hrs (2018-11-20 15:36:17 GMT)
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Possible also, the legal right to civil remedy.
Selected response from:

B D Finch
France
Local time: 00:06
Grading comment
Thanks for a neat and well-supported solution.
4 KudoZ points were awarded for this answer



Summary of answers provided
4 +2law relating to recovery of debts
AllegroTrans
4 +2the law on debt enforcement
B D Finch
4 -1law / regulations / legislation regarding/concerning debt recovery
Daryo
3Law on Prosecutions
Louise Normandin
3of the right to take legal action
Nikki Scott-Despaigne


Discussion entries: 4





  

Answers


11 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 3/5Answerer confidence 3/5
of the right to take legal action


Explanation:
I think that “le droit des poursuites » is referring to the circumstances in which there is a right to take legal action rather than to a specific legal text of civil procedure. If I understand this correctly, the right to pursue a former spouse will arise in CH when the legal minimum obligations are not met.
(It is nothing to do with “prosecution” here, which is a criminal term. That said, failure to pay child support is an offence in some countries, although I still maintain that is not the point being made here. Were that the case, the fact remains that the term “prosecute” is still a criminal legal term in English). 😉
When the spouses’ total income exceeds the subsistence level below which there is a right to take legal action, the amount available can/may, [en principe?], be distributed in equal shares between them, each spouse having the right to participate in an identical way to the former way of life.

https://legalonline.ch/droit-des-poursuites/
https://www.guidesocial.ch/recherche/fiche/poursuite-pour-de...


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Note added at 11 hrs (2018-11-20 09:49:05 GMT)
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Medium confidence level as I cannot claim to be a specialist of Swiss law but I have of course sought what I believe to be reliable sources.

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Note added at 11 hrs (2018-11-20 09:51:27 GMT)
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I forgot punctuation, sorry. My suggestion therefore is:

"When/where/if the spouses’ total income exceeds the subsistence level below which there is a right to take legal action, the amount available can/may, [en principe?], be distributed in equal shares between them, each spouse having the right to participate in an identical way to the former standard of living."

Std of living = the term that was on the tip of my tongue when I first posted this suggestion!


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Note added at 11 hrs (2018-11-20 10:17:32 GMT)
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If the "le droit des poursuites" does refer to a law on criminal procedure, (and not to the right to take legal action, which I believe to be the case here), then:
- it would be helpful if someone could point to a specific law, and/or
- specify which law determines that failure to make up the revenue to at least subsistence level is an offence.
(In France, failure to pay child support determined by a court is an offence, for example, so I am aware that in certain circumstances, we may be in the criminal (delit) field of the law).

Nikki Scott-Despaigne
Local time: 00:06
Works in field
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in category: 443

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  Ben Gaia: I read it the way you do.
1 day 1 hr

disagree  Daryo: that would be "le droit aux poursuites (/ le droit d'entamer des poursuites)"- even SW FR is not weird enough to express that as "le droit des poursuites" + it won't fit in this text anyway.
2 days 5 hrs
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5 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 3/5Answerer confidence 3/5
droit des poursuites
Law on Prosecutions


Explanation:
-

The "droit des poursuites" refers to the Swiss "Loi fédérale sur la poursuite pour dettes et la faillite (LP)"

In the context of the Swiss "LP", "minimum vital" includes elements that are viewed as necessary for a decent standard of living rather than for mere survival.

I suggest the following translation:

"... minimum vital du droit des poursuites..."

"... decent living as defined in the Law on Prosecutions ..."

-


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Note added at 11 hrs (2018-11-20 09:48:05 GMT)
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To avoid the criminal connotation, how about replacing "Law on Prosecutions" with "Law on Civil Proceedings"?

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Note added at 11 hrs (2018-11-20 10:27:27 GMT)
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"Minimum vital" is defined in the Swiss "Loi fédérale sur la poursuite pour dettes et la faillite".

"When/where/if the spouses’ total income exceeds the decent standard of living defined in the Law on Civil Proceedings, the balance available may, in principle, be divided equally between them, each spouse having the right to take part equally in their former lifestyle."





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Note added at 12 hrs (2018-11-20 10:50:55 GMT)
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Oops! I just noticed my repeated use of the word "equally" in the above sentence.

"When/where/if the spouses’ total income exceeds the decent standard of living defined in the Law on Civil Proceedings, the balance available may, in principle, be divided equally between them, each spouse having the right to enjoy their former lifestyle."



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Note added at 12 hrs (2018-11-20 11:16:33 GMT)
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Forget both "Prosecutions" and "Civil Proceedings". B D Finch has found a more accurate solution: "Debt Enforcement".


    https://www.droit-bilingue.ch/rs/lex/1889/00/18890002-index-fr-de.html
    https://www.fr.ch/opf/institutions-et-droits-politiques/justice/minimum-vital
Louise Normandin
Canada
Local time: 15:06
Specializes in field
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish, Native in FrenchFrench

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  ph-b (X): https://www.vs.ch/documents/508074/630332/Lignes directrices... /Oops, "prosecutions" may not be the right word... but I still agree with the explanation, sources, etc.
26 mins
  -> Thanks. And, I agree that "Prosecutions" is not the right word... B D Finch suggested "Debt Enforcement", which is definitely more accurate.

disagree  Nikki Scott-Despaigne: Sorry for the redness of the "disagree", but "prosecution" is a term used in criminal law. I do not think it can be used here as the police prosecute people (in the name of the State or of the Crown). This is a civil law matter.
4 hrs
  -> B D Finch suggested "Debt Enforcement", which is definitely more accurate.

neutral  Daryo: "prosecution" would normally be used when dealing with criminal charges - sounds odd when it's a civil case i.e. a dispute about money//not to forget it's Swiss FR so expect unusual use of terms NOT to be translated AS IF it was FR FR!
4 hrs
  -> B D Finch suggested "Debt Enforcement", which is definitely more accurate.

neutral  Ben Gaia: Really great refs and information.
2 days 5 hrs
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11 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5 peer agreement (net): +2
the law on debt enforcement


Explanation:
https://legalonline.ch/droit-des-poursuites/
"Le droit des poursuites permet d’obtenir le payement de ce qui vous est dû. Il prévoit également vos moyens de défense lorsque quelqu’un vous réclame de l’argent. "

https://www.scotlawcom.gov.uk/index.php/download_file/view/1...
24 sept. 1999 - Luxembourg. Switzerland. ...... proceedings, aliment, and financial provision on divorce or nullity of marriage. 7.7 ...... The Federal Law on Debt Enforcement and Bankruptcy of 1889, as amended, regulates debt enforcement.

This is about the minimum financial threshold below which people cannot be pursued for debt. Once the spouses' joint income passes that threshold, the surplus is divided between them, each of them having the right to enjoy the same standard of living as before.

It seems that this law varies from canton to canton.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 11 hrs (2018-11-20 10:40:03 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

https://www.admin.ch/ch/f/gg/pc/documents/2075/Rapport_entre...
Le projet de modification du code civil sur le droit d'entretien de l'enfant ...... en ce sens que le minimum vital de celui-ci selon le droit des poursuites doit ... RS 281.1; Loi fédérale du 11 avril 1889 sur la poursuite pour dettes et la faillite (LP).

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 16 hrs (2018-11-20 15:36:17 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Possible also, the legal right to civil remedy.

B D Finch
France
Local time: 00:06
Works in field
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in category: 505
Grading comment
Thanks for a neat and well-supported solution.

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  Louise Normandin: Yes to the term "debt enforcement".
38 mins
  -> Thanks Louise

neutral  Nikki Scott-Despaigne: Strictly spkg, the source is about "le droit des poursuites", about the right (entitlement) to take legal action and not about the "loi" on taking action "pour dettes et la faillite". Note that "debt enfct" comes after jdgt, so this is "act. for recovery"
3 hrs
  -> If you look at my first two Swiss references, that doesn't seem to be the case. Not "law" in the sense of a specific law/act, but in the more general sense of the law relating to the income thresholds for enforceability.

agree  Richard Vranch: I would say “debt collection law”
4 hrs
  -> Thanks Richard. Isn't debt collection more about bailiffs and debt collection agencies?

neutral  Daryo: you would first try "to recover" was is owed to you, and resort to "enforcement" only if the debtor proves to be hard of hearing / won't listen to what the judge said ...
12 hrs
  -> I think that this is a question of what that particular set of Swiss laws is called.

neutral  AllegroTrans: Not sure this can really be called debt enforcement, I think it's much more likely to be simple recovery by direct deductions from benefits; very civilised, very Swiss and not involving bailliffs or other "nasties"
1 day 8 hrs
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1 day 14 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5 peer agreement (net): +2
law relating to recovery of debts


Explanation:
I think this puts it more succinctly than the other answers

AllegroTrans
United Kingdom
Local time: 23:06
Specializes in field
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in category: 1047

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  Daryo: can only agree, as I proposed practically the same answer before seeing yours.
18 mins
  -> tx

agree  B D Finch: Yes, that's better than "enforcement".
1 day 17 hrs
  -> Thank you B D
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1 day 26 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5 peer agreement (net): -1
droit des poursuites
law / regulations / legislation regarding/concerning debt recovery


Explanation:
droit = here used in the sense of "law / regulations / legislation" not in the sense of "having the right to do s.t."

poursuite = in the sense of "chasing" (the money owed to you) nothing to suggest any kind of "(criminal) prosecution"

My interpretation of perfectly good references already given.

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Note added at 2 days 17 hrs (2018-11-22 16:37:35 GMT)
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the law in question:

Loi fédérale sur la poursuite pour dettes et la faillite

https://www.admin.ch/opc/fr/classified-compilation/18890002/...

"le droit" des poursuites would include this law and all the cases where this law was applied, comments and clarifications given by competent authorities etc ..

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Note added at 2 days 18 hrs (2018-11-22 16:53:03 GMT)
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minimum vital du droit des poursuites
=
le minimum vital tel que défini dans / par le droit relatif aux poursuites pour dettes et à la faillite


Daryo
United Kingdom
Local time: 23:06
Native speaker of: Native in SerbianSerbian, Native in FrenchFrench
PRO pts in category: 163

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
disagree  Ben Gaia: One term is required. Site rule 3.3
12 hrs
  -> ??????? Extremely convincing argument - in some alternative / differential / free-from-logic logic, maybe // ever heard of "patriotism is the last refuge of ..."? - absolutely no parallels intended with "nitpicking about literal application of rules.."

neutral  Louise Normandin: Daryo, I'm sorry to see that you ended up with a "-1". For future reference, I think you'd get better results if you presented all your suggestions in the "Explanation" field, but wrote only your favourite idea in the "target term" field. ;-)
3 days 17 hrs
  -> Thank you for your suggestions - As for what you call "-1": if I worried about all the nonsense I hear ... my latest favorite reading: ISBN 978-0-06-245771-4, very interesting! Ah yes, there is also the one about the drop of water and the duck ...
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