s'en rapportent à prudence de justice

English translation: leave the matter to the discretion of the court

GLOSSARY ENTRY (DERIVED FROM QUESTION BELOW)
French term or phrase:s'en rapportent à prudence de justice
English translation:leave the matter to the discretion of the court
Entered by: Adrian MM.

10:00 Sep 19, 2019
French to English translations [PRO]
Law/Patents - Law (general)
French term or phrase: s'en rapportent à prudence de justice
Hello,

I am having difficulty translating a sentence of a Court of Appeal ruling. The full context is as follows:

donner acte aux [Company 1] et [Company 2] de se qu'elles s'en rapportent à prudence de justice à son appréciation sur la compétence du conseil de prud'hommes de Béthune et renvoyer Mme [name] ainsi que ces deux sociétés devant la juridiction qu'elle désignera pour évoquer le fond

I have reviewed Proz entries on 'donner acte', 'se rapporter à justice' and 'prudence de justice' but I still cannot come up with something that works for me, that combines these three elements correctly. Unfortunately my earlier question did not comply with the rules for posting, however, my issue is really about the interplay of these terms.

donner acte: give formal notice/acknowledge
prudence de justice: case-law
's'en rapportent à prudence de justice': this is the main sticking point

From my research, the Court is being asked to acknowledge whatever those companies refer to it in terms of case law but I have also found explanations suggesting that this is about leaving things to the discretion of the court. I am really stuck, I have spent hours on this, I would be grateful for any help.


Note: I understand 'de se' to be a typo for 'de ce'. I assume the rest of the sentence is correct.
Carrie Booth
United Kingdom
Local time: 15:38
leave the matter to the discretion of the court
Explanation:
prudence de justice is not the same as 'jurisprudence', namely case-law, but the (venerated) wisdom of the (venerable) court.

So a suggestion: 'do confirm (on the record: Bridge) to Cos. 1 & 2/ give them formal acknowledgement/ that (de se qu' = de ce qu') they are leaving to the court (quant: pace Marco S., possibly otiose) to adjudicate, as a matter of its discretion, on the jurisdiction of the Béthune Employment/ Industrial Tribunal (to hear on referral this selfsame case).

à prudence de justice (à son appréciation is IMO a near double-up).
Selected response from:

Adrian MM.
United Kingdom
Grading comment
Selected automatically based on peer agreement.
4 KudoZ points were awarded for this answer



Summary of answers provided
4 +2leave the matter to the discretion of the court
Adrian MM.
3do not accept (its/the court's assessment...)
Ph_B


Discussion entries: 12





  

Answers


1 hr   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5 peer agreement (net): +2
s'en rapporter à prudence de justice
leave the matter to the discretion of the court


Explanation:
prudence de justice is not the same as 'jurisprudence', namely case-law, but the (venerated) wisdom of the (venerable) court.

So a suggestion: 'do confirm (on the record: Bridge) to Cos. 1 & 2/ give them formal acknowledgement/ that (de se qu' = de ce qu') they are leaving to the court (quant: pace Marco S., possibly otiose) to adjudicate, as a matter of its discretion, on the jurisdiction of the Béthune Employment/ Industrial Tribunal (to hear on referral this selfsame case).

à prudence de justice (à son appréciation is IMO a near double-up).


    Reference: http://www.proz.com/kudoz/french-to-english/law-general/6041...
Adrian MM.
United Kingdom
Specializes in field
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in category: 66
Grading comment
Selected automatically based on peer agreement.
Notes to answerer
Asker: I have gone for now with a variation of Adrians' answer, but that link makes me wonder too... "Contrairement au sens que beaucoup voudrait lui donner, c’est-à-dire laisser au magistrat le soin de trancher en s’en remettant à sa sagesse, cette expression manifeste en réalité l’opposition de celui qui la formule. C’est ainsi que la Cour de cassation, après avoir rappelé qu’une telle demande s’analyse en une contestation, en infère une demande en justice de l’intimé et, par voie de conséquence, l’interruption du délai de prescription." That explanation does seem to change things... and then the conclusion that these words have lost their original meanings. Oh I'm not sure!


Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
neutral  Julie Barber: While it sounds good, I was wondering after seeing paras 4 and 5 on this link https://larevue.squirepattonboggs.com/lorsqu-une-expression-... I tend to agree for the double up point
20 mins
  -> Good link if qualifying donner acte. I feel the Cour de Cassation needs the help of us 'English' if they do not realise that such expression denotes a neutral declaration rather than an active claim that stops the time limit running.

agree  writeaway: How can I not agree? https://www.proz.com/kudoz/french-to-english/law-general/105...
33 mins
  -> Yes. Indeed.

agree  AllegroTrans
1 day 3 hrs
Login to enter a peer comment (or grade)

19 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 3/5Answerer confidence 3/5
s'en rapportent à prudence de justice ([quant] à son appréciation...)
do not accept (its/the court's assessment...)


Explanation:

I'm not sure that is about case-law (jurisprudence vs. prudence de justice) or "about leaving things to the discretion of the court".

Cf. clue in Julie Barber's link: ...la Cour de cassation rappelle le sens de l’expression « s’en rapporter à justice ».
Contrairement au sens que beaucoup voudrai[en]t lui donner, c’est-à-dire laisser au magistrat le soin de trancher en s’en remettant à sa sagesse, cette expression manifeste en réalité l’opposition de celui qui la formule.

(paragraphs 4 and 5 here: https://larevue.squirepattonboggs.com/lorsqu-une-expression-... )

Assuming that s'en rapporter à prudence de justice is the same as s'en rapporter à justice, Julie's quote is supported by other examples:

Il semble acquis que le rapport en justice consiste, malgré les apparence, à élever (pour la forme puisque rien n'est dit) une contestation au fond (Cass civ 3ème 16 juin 2016 n°15-16469)
https://www.pernaud.fr/info/glossaire/10077385/rapport-a-jus...

Dans la pratique, s'en rapporter à justice, c'est contester...
https://blogavocat.fr/space/anne-france.petit/content/le-rap...

lorsque le plaideur a déclaré s’en rapporter à justice, un tel rapport "n’implique pas que son auteur adhère ou acquiesce à la demande de la partie adverse".
https://www.courdecassation.fr/jurisprudence_2/chambres_mixt...

la Cour de cassation rappelle que "le fait, pour une partie, de s'en rapporter à justice sur le mérite d'une demande n'implique pas de sa part un acquiescement à cette demande, mais la contestation de celle-ci"
https://sites.google.com/site/avocatrouen/services/procedure...

I suspect that the sentence starts with something like La Cour d'Appel décide de since we know it's a ruling,

i.e.
[La Cour d'Appel décide de] donner acte aux [Company 1] et [Company 2] de se qu'elles s'en rapportent à prudence de justice [quant] à son appréciation sur la compétence du conseil de prud'hommes de Béthune et renvoyer Mme [name] ainsi que ces deux sociétés devant la juridiction qu'elle désignera pour évoquer le fond"

and if Carrie confirms that this the case, then to me, the sentence would look like this: "The Court of Appeal acknowledges that Companies A and B disagree with its assessment of the jurisdiction of the Béthune conseil de prud'hommes and decides to refer Mrs [name] and both Companies to the court that it (the C of A) will choose".

>

elles s'en rapportent à prudence de justice ([quant] à son appréciation sur...)
=
"they do not accept (its/the court's assessment of...)"

although F>E legal translators will certainly use more appropriate terms.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 22 hrs (2019-09-20 08:02:09 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------


Have just realised I used "disagree with" in my comments and "do not accept" in my answer. Same difference.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 day 5 hrs (2019-09-20 15:38:02 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------


OK, so it isn't the court that decides to..., but it is three (?) companies that ask the court to decide/find/etc. ... Fine. I based my assumption that it was the C of A on the fact that you said it was a ruling.

However, whoever asks/decides/finds... doesn't change the basic meaning and I haven't found any evidence that this phrase means "leave things to the discretion of the court", although I agree that it does look as if that's what it means. On the contrary, a lot of people who appear to be reliable say that it means that the parties do not accept (or words to that effect) the court's decision (and, in your sentence, want this disagreement to be acknowledged).

With your additional info, I understand that your sentence means:

"[those companies] are asking the Court of Appeal to acknowledge that they're not happy with its [the C of A's] assesment of the jurisdiction of the Béthune tribunal and [are asking the Court of Appeal] to refer Mrs X and those two companies to the court that it [the C of A?] will choose"

with the same proviso as before, i.e. this is my explanation, not a legal translation.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 day 5 hrs (2019-09-20 15:48:07 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------


Read: " I based my assumption on the fact that you said it was a ruling."

Ph_B
France
Local time: 16:38
Specializes in field
Native speaker of: Native in FrenchFrench
Notes to answerer
Asker: Thanks for your detailed comments. I would have provided more context but I worried my question would be disqualified if I included an even bigger chunk! But no, it is not the CoA, it is the companies (and one other) who are requesting this. Here is the fuller context: La [Company 3] et les [Companies 1 and 2] demandent à la cour de : … -à titre principal et in limine litis, donner acte aux [Company 1] et [Company 2] de se qu'elles s'en rapportent à prudence de justice à son appréciation sur la compétence du conseil de prud'hommes de Béthune et renvoyer Mme [name] ainsi que ces deux sociétés devant la juridiction qu'elle désignera pour évoquer le fond My current thinking, supported by the other people on this page, is "acknowledge to Cy1 and Cy2 that they subject themselves to the discretion of the courts … Honestly, I find the phrasing of this really awful.. and maybe it is just because it is legal work and it can be tricky like that. But as a native French, do you also find it confusing? I need to give the client feedback on the French too.

Asker: I am sorry if I have frustrated you, my original questing was disqualified for having too many words in the subject line and I was asked to repost with only ‘s’en rapporter à p d j..’ My issue has always been with more than just that phrase - a phrase that I am aware has been addressed in other queries. I am not too clear on forum etiquette and am trying hard to refer to all the links you and other participants have kindly sent so that I can offer a response of my own that is befitting of the efforts i have see here. Yes, I did say it is from a ruling. But to be more specific it from the arguments of the parties put to the court. However, I don’t think think it changes things. I’m very interested in your take on this because I was reluctant to accept the discretion thing straight up and felt there was more too it. Thank you for input, I am grateful.

Login to enter a peer comment (or grade)



Login or register (free and only takes a few minutes) to participate in this question.

You will also have access to many other tools and opportunities designed for those who have language-related jobs (or are passionate about them). Participation is free and the site has a strict confidentiality policy.

KudoZ™ translation help

The KudoZ network provides a framework for translators and others to assist each other with translations or explanations of terms and short phrases.


See also:

Your current localization setting

English

Select a language

Term search
  • All of ProZ.com
  • Term search
  • Jobs
  • Forums
  • Multiple search