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French to English translations [PRO] Law/Patents - Law (general)
French term or phrase:s'en rapportent à prudence de justice
Hello,
I am having difficulty translating a sentence of a Court of Appeal ruling. The full context is as follows:
donner acte aux [Company 1] et [Company 2] de se qu'elles s'en rapportent à prudence de justice à son appréciation sur la compétence du conseil de prud'hommes de Béthune et renvoyer Mme [name] ainsi que ces deux sociétés devant la juridiction qu'elle désignera pour évoquer le fond
I have reviewed Proz entries on 'donner acte', 'se rapporter à justice' and 'prudence de justice' but I still cannot come up with something that works for me, that combines these three elements correctly. Unfortunately my earlier question did not comply with the rules for posting, however, my issue is really about the interplay of these terms.
donner acte: give formal notice/acknowledge prudence de justice: case-law 's'en rapportent à prudence de justice': this is the main sticking point
From my research, the Court is being asked to acknowledge whatever those companies refer to it in terms of case law but I have also found explanations suggesting that this is about leaving things to the discretion of the court. I am really stuck, I have spent hours on this, I would be grateful for any help.
Note: I understand 'de se' to be a typo for 'de ce'. I assume the rest of the sentence is correct.
Explanation: prudence de justice is not the same as 'jurisprudence', namely case-law, but the (venerated) wisdom of the (venerable) court.
So a suggestion: 'do confirm (on the record: Bridge) to Cos. 1 & 2/ give them formal acknowledgement/ that (de se qu' = de ce qu') they are leaving to the court (quant: pace Marco S., possibly otiose) to adjudicate, as a matter of its discretion, on the jurisdiction of the Béthune Employment/ Industrial Tribunal (to hear on referral this selfsame case).
à prudence de justice (à son appréciation is IMO a near double-up).
Hello all, and apologies for leaving this for a week. I know I should have selected an answer sooner but to tell you the truth, I still find something odd about this one. I am not sure what is the done thing in this situation in terms of forum rules. Adrian's answer works when I consider the wider context [of half a page or so.. much more than I could include here I am afraid!] but I still feel that there is much more to this phrase as Ph_B and Julie both said. The info on the notion of 'not' accepting the court's assessment could help someone else so it would be good not to bury that.
Ph_B (X)
France
Carrie,
16:50 Sep 20, 2019
" I am sorry if I have frustrated you" Don't worry, no frustration here :-) I was just trying to answer your query about "disqualification". Sorry for the misunderstanding.
Ph_B (X)
France
Carrie,
15:45 Sep 20, 2019
"But as a native French, do you also find it confusing? I need to give the client feedback on the French too." No, not really confusing. I agree with Marco's quant, but the the sentence looks OK to me if you consider it comes from a Court of Appeal.
Ph_B (X)
France
Carrie,
15:42 Sep 20, 2019
"I worried my question would be disqualified if I included an even bigger chunk". It might have been if your actual question had had more than 10-15 words, but that doesn't apply to the context section just below the question. In fact, the more context, the better - as long as you make sure that you don't disclose names, etc.
Good morning! Many thanks for your detailed and enthusiastic input. At the moment I am sitting on something along the lines of "acknowledge to Cy1 and Cy2 that they subject themselves to the discretion of the courts …"
I think the word 'prudence' added an unnecessary realm of confusion for me as I went down the road of Luxembourg legal speak. I am reassured by the general consensus here of this being about leaving things to the discretion of the courts.
Though I tended to agree years ago with 9 out of 10 of (Belgian boy?) Lenkl's - albeit controversial FRE/DUT > ENG answers, I feel that FHS Bridge's Council of Europe FRE/ENG Glossary entry of 'leave the matter to the discretion of the court' and already elsewhere in the Glossaries cf. Writeaway's link. is the right translation. PS: 9 out of 10 Bexiteers (see the Daily Mail on Line readers' comments) think that the UK is leaving the Council of Europe/ the non-EU European Registry and Court of Human Rights.
Hi Adrian, thanks for your response. Your suggestion is rather along the lines of how I started to approach this, however, the following entry and subsequent research made me really question the inclusion of the word 'prudence': https://www.proz.com/kudoz/french-to-english/law-general/116... With that entry in mind, would you still consider it to have nothing to do with case-law?
Hi Julie, that entry is interesting. Do you think then it could be something like, to acknowledge that the companies have nothing more to submit in terms of case law in their assessment...
I really am struggling on a linguistic and conceptual level with this one :-(
Marco, it would not surprise me if a word is missing! For now I have translated the second part as "in their assessment of the competence of the Employment Tribunal of Béthune and refer Ms XXX as well as these two companies back before the Court that it shall designate to address the merits"
Is it possible that the word "quant" is accidentally missing from the source text? Between "prudence de justice" and "à son appréciation"?
Automatic update in 00:
Answers
1 hr confidence: peer agreement (net): +2
s'en rapporter à prudence de justice
leave the matter to the discretion of the court
Explanation: prudence de justice is not the same as 'jurisprudence', namely case-law, but the (venerated) wisdom of the (venerable) court.
So a suggestion: 'do confirm (on the record: Bridge) to Cos. 1 & 2/ give them formal acknowledgement/ that (de se qu' = de ce qu') they are leaving to the court (quant: pace Marco S., possibly otiose) to adjudicate, as a matter of its discretion, on the jurisdiction of the Béthune Employment/ Industrial Tribunal (to hear on referral this selfsame case).
à prudence de justice (à son appréciation is IMO a near double-up).
Adrian MM. Austria Specializes in field Native speaker of: English PRO pts in category: 359
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Notes to answerer
Asker: I have gone for now with a variation of Adrians' answer, but that link makes me wonder too...
"Contrairement au sens que beaucoup voudrait lui donner, c’est-à-dire laisser au magistrat le soin de trancher en s’en remettant à sa sagesse, cette expression manifeste en réalité l’opposition de celui qui la formule.
C’est ainsi que la Cour de cassation, après avoir rappelé qu’une telle demande s’analyse en une contestation, en infère une demande en justice de l’intimé et, par voie de conséquence, l’interruption du délai de prescription."
That explanation does seem to change things... and then the conclusion that these words have lost their original meanings. Oh I'm not sure!
peer agreement (net): +2