Glossary entry (derived from question below)
French term or phrase:
sans cause sérieuse
English translation:
without serious cause
Added to glossary by
Stephanie Mitchel
Mar 14, 2005 22:38
19 yrs ago
8 viewers *
French term
United States
sans cause sérieuse
French to English
Law/Patents
Law (general)
labor law
Can I use 'vexatious' in the following context?
"Indemnité de licenciement sans cause réelle et sérieuse"
"Indemnité de licenciement sans cause réelle et sérieuse"
Proposed translations
(English)
| 4 +3 | without a serious cause |
olganet
|
| 4 +1 | without just cause / without cause |
Patrice
|
| 4 +1 | I shouldn't think so. |
Bourth (X)
|
| 4 +1 | without real and serious reason |
dholmes (X)
|
| 3 +1 | without genuine merit/without legitimate grounds |
Carmen Schultz
|
Proposed translations
+3
5 mins
French term (edited):
sans cause sйrieuse
Selected
without a serious cause
Discharge
Motive. A sharp distinction is drawn between reasons for discharge which pertain to the employee individually -- personal -- and those which are essentially economic concerns of the enterprise
Personal. Discharge of an employee for a reason personal to him requires a cause which is "real and serious", i.e., there is no such thing as an employee at will.
La cause réelle -- good and serious cause -- is an objective fact independent of the employer's good or bad humor. It must be specific and existing, and capable of verification.
La cause sérieuse -- serious cause -- is that which makes impossible without damages to the enterprise the continued employment and which makes discharge necessary. The fault must relate to the employment relationship; the worker's personal situation doesn't count. Professional incompetence, physical inaptitude, repeated absence due to sickness, advanced age, bad relations with the clientele or other employees are all good causes.
The burden of showing serious cause is on the employerhttp://www.twmlaw.com/practice/corporate3cont.htm
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Note added at 19 mins (2005-03-14 22:58:22 GMT)
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reason versus cause
Employers can create the ability to terminate employees at will, i.e., for any reason or for no reason, with or without cause ...
http://www.abanet.org/genpractice/lawyer/complete/f97sanc.ht...
Motive. A sharp distinction is drawn between reasons for discharge which pertain to the employee individually -- personal -- and those which are essentially economic concerns of the enterprise
Personal. Discharge of an employee for a reason personal to him requires a cause which is "real and serious", i.e., there is no such thing as an employee at will.
La cause réelle -- good and serious cause -- is an objective fact independent of the employer's good or bad humor. It must be specific and existing, and capable of verification.
La cause sérieuse -- serious cause -- is that which makes impossible without damages to the enterprise the continued employment and which makes discharge necessary. The fault must relate to the employment relationship; the worker's personal situation doesn't count. Professional incompetence, physical inaptitude, repeated absence due to sickness, advanced age, bad relations with the clientele or other employees are all good causes.
The burden of showing serious cause is on the employerhttp://www.twmlaw.com/practice/corporate3cont.htm
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 19 mins (2005-03-14 22:58:22 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
reason versus cause
Employers can create the ability to terminate employees at will, i.e., for any reason or for no reason, with or without cause ...
http://www.abanet.org/genpractice/lawyer/complete/f97sanc.ht...
Peer comment(s):
| agree |
Carmy Tutino
2 mins
|
|
thank you
|
|
| agree |
Bourth (X)
: Though I would prefer "reason" to "cause".
7 mins
|
|
Thank you, Employers can create the ability to terminate employees at will, i.e., for any reason or for no reason, with or without cause ...
|
|
| agree |
Shaila Kamath
11 hrs
|
|
Thank you
|
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer.
+1
1 hr
French term (edited):
sans cause s�rieuse
without just cause / without cause
It seems to me that whatever cause to dismiss a person is a serious cause. And from an employer perspective, cause is cause. However, the term used in labour relations in North American is "cause" or "just cause"...though no reason you couldn't say "serious" cause, I suppose, and get your message across.
Peer comment(s):
| agree |
Gina W
: yes, this is what I have seen mostly in legal documents
50 mins
|
|
Thanks, Gad.
|
+1
1 hr
Carmen Schultz
Native in English
Specializes in field
Accurate & Reliable
Native in: Spanish 
, English
Works in: English to Spanish, Spanish to English, French to English, and 2 more.
Related KudoZ points
:
16
French term (edited):
sans cause s�rieuse
without genuine merit/without legitimate grounds
as in a frivolous type of claim.
+1
12 mins
French term (edited):
sans cause s�rieuse
I shouldn't think so.
Not only is ANY dismissal vexatious (unless one is aiming to get fired to get indemnities), but the word has a particular legal meaning that does not apply here, it would seem.
Keep it literal:
The Court found that there was no serious fault by the employee and thus it declared
the dismissal as having been decided without real and SERIOUS REASON. ...
www.ilo.org/public/english/ employment/gems/eeo/law/france/cl_cc.htm
If the dismissal is for a substantial and serious reason AND FOR PERSONAL
OR ECONOMIC FACTORS (EG REDUNDANCY). Subjective reasons ...
www.worldlink-law.com/businfo/france/employment.htm
extension will not be given if an employee is dismissed for a SERIOUS REASON, for
example theft. Is there a time limit for bringing an Unfair Dismissal Claim ? ...
www.compactlaw.co.uk/monster/empq14.html
Although an employer can fire a person immediately, perhaps for stealing or another SERIOUS REASON, most employers give advance warning verbally and/or in writing to allow the employee an opportunity to make improvements before dismissal.
[http://spot.pcc.edu/~rjacobs/career/losing_a_job.htm]
Complaint filed following non-compliance with the provisions of the Act that protect
the employee against dismissal without a real and SERIOUS REASON. ...
www.cnt.gouv.qc.ca/en/gen/lexique/lexique.pdf
DISMISSAL The college reserves the right to dismiss a student for any SERIOUS REASON,
eg, failure to meet academic and/or clinical standards; health problems ...
www.helenefuld.edu/policy2.html
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Note added at 3 hrs 43 mins (2005-03-15 02:21:51 GMT)
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Cause and Reason: This is becoming an interesting (and fun) discussion.
As I see it, the cause of anyone\'s dismissal is not any action they may have performed but the reaction of their employer thereto. The action a dismissed employee may have performed is the reason for the cause, as it were. While the expression \"with (just) cause\" is perfectly valid, it applies to the dismisser (in this case), not to the dismissee.
I guess it\'s a bit like buying and selling. The operation is one and the same, only seen from two opposing angles. If I have reason to sell something, you might have cause to buy it. Or verse vicer?
Look at causes of death. If I get run down by a drunken driver, is the cause of my death his car or his drinking? For me, the cause of my death is that I got hit by a car. The reason for my death is that he was drunk in charge.
Keep it literal:
The Court found that there was no serious fault by the employee and thus it declared
the dismissal as having been decided without real and SERIOUS REASON. ...
www.ilo.org/public/english/ employment/gems/eeo/law/france/cl_cc.htm
If the dismissal is for a substantial and serious reason AND FOR PERSONAL
OR ECONOMIC FACTORS (EG REDUNDANCY). Subjective reasons ...
www.worldlink-law.com/businfo/france/employment.htm
extension will not be given if an employee is dismissed for a SERIOUS REASON, for
example theft. Is there a time limit for bringing an Unfair Dismissal Claim ? ...
www.compactlaw.co.uk/monster/empq14.html
Although an employer can fire a person immediately, perhaps for stealing or another SERIOUS REASON, most employers give advance warning verbally and/or in writing to allow the employee an opportunity to make improvements before dismissal.
[http://spot.pcc.edu/~rjacobs/career/losing_a_job.htm]
Complaint filed following non-compliance with the provisions of the Act that protect
the employee against dismissal without a real and SERIOUS REASON. ...
www.cnt.gouv.qc.ca/en/gen/lexique/lexique.pdf
DISMISSAL The college reserves the right to dismiss a student for any SERIOUS REASON,
eg, failure to meet academic and/or clinical standards; health problems ...
www.helenefuld.edu/policy2.html
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 3 hrs 43 mins (2005-03-15 02:21:51 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
Cause and Reason: This is becoming an interesting (and fun) discussion.
As I see it, the cause of anyone\'s dismissal is not any action they may have performed but the reaction of their employer thereto. The action a dismissed employee may have performed is the reason for the cause, as it were. While the expression \"with (just) cause\" is perfectly valid, it applies to the dismisser (in this case), not to the dismissee.
I guess it\'s a bit like buying and selling. The operation is one and the same, only seen from two opposing angles. If I have reason to sell something, you might have cause to buy it. Or verse vicer?
Look at causes of death. If I get run down by a drunken driver, is the cause of my death his car or his drinking? For me, the cause of my death is that I got hit by a car. The reason for my death is that he was drunk in charge.
Peer comment(s):
| agree |
Anna Maria Augustine (X)
: er, I prefer reason; cause being relative to cause and effect - doesn't seem appropriate to the issue at hand!
19 mins
|
+1
8 hrs
French term (edited):
sans cause s�rieuse
without real and serious reason
Is what I usually use ...
Reference comments
1449 days
Reference:
Workplace Justice: Employment Obligations in International Perspective - Google Books Result
by Hoyt N. Wheeler, Jacques Rojot - 1992 - Business & Economics - 387 pages
... be terminated for real and serious reason based on their failure to perform, particularly where this interferes with the work of other employees. ...
books.google.be/books?isbn=087249781X
by Hoyt N. Wheeler, Jacques Rojot - 1992 - Business & Economics - 387 pages
... be terminated for real and serious reason based on their failure to perform, particularly where this interferes with the work of other employees. ...
books.google.be/books?isbn=087249781X
Discussion