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jusqu'alors

English translation: both

12:38 Sep 26, 2005
French to English translations [PRO]
Linguistics / Language; linguistics; semantics
French term or phrase: jusqu'alors
Does anyone know if the term 'jusqu'alors' can mean 'until now' or 'until this time'... as well as 'until then' or 'until that time'? i.e. can it refer to the present tense as well as the past? Of course, I am aware of the expression 'jusqu'ici' to mean 'until now'.

I have come across 'jusqu'alors' twice recently (sorry, don't have context to hand at the moment) in what appears to me to be a present tense sort of setting...and it has caused me to wonder. Any advice, preferably from a native French speaker, would be appreciated.

Thanks!
French2English
United Kingdom
Local time: 13:57
English translation:both
Explanation:
until now or until then, depending on context.
Selected response from:

sarahl (X)
Local time: 05:57
Grading comment
Selected automatically based on peer agreement.
4 KudoZ points were awarded for this answer



Summary of answers provided
4 +6both
sarahl (X)
3 +4"up till the moment when..."
Tony M
3 +3until this time
Jean-Marie Le Ray
5 +1voir ci-dessous
xuebai
5 +1up to the moment of speaking [this is an explanation]
Jane Lamb-Ruiz (X)
1 +1NFG - From "Dictionnaire des difficultés du français" (Robert)
PFB (X)


Discussion entries: 5





  

Answers


10 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 3/5Answerer confidence 3/5 peer agreement (net): +3
until this time


Explanation:
I would say "until this time", or "until that time", as well for the past as for the future.
Jean-Marie

Jean-Marie Le Ray
France
Local time: 14:57
Native speaker of: Native in FrenchFrench
PRO pts in category: 4

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  Georges Tocco: in the past certainly but also in the conditional tense.
17 mins
agree  Anthony Green: "until that time" is fine for the future
4 hrs
agree  Jane Lamb-Ruiz (X): yes future rarely ,,but you can't say "this" for a future...
3 days 9 hrs
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17 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5 peer agreement (net): +6
both


Explanation:
until now or until then, depending on context.

sarahl (X)
Local time: 05:57
Native speaker of: Native in FrenchFrench
PRO pts in category: 27
Grading comment
Selected automatically based on peer agreement.

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  Georges Tocco: in the pa
8 mins
  -> thanks Georges
agree  Gina W
15 mins
  -> thanks gad
agree  Aisha Maniar
1 hr
  -> thanks Aisha
agree  Patrice
2 hrs
  -> thanks Patricia
agree  RHELLER: asker needs to post specific phrase - we use these cues to help us determine the exact tense, they must be cited in context
3 hrs
  -> thanks duhlink
agree  Michele Fauble
3 hrs
  -> thanks Michele
neutral  Jane Lamb-Ruiz (X): jusqu álors is until now?? I don't think so...and you need to stop making personal comments of this kind. This is NeVeR the PResent in English..that is a linguistic comment..not a personal one..
1 day 4 hrs
  -> you need to learn French.
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2 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 5/5 peer agreement (net): +1
voir ci-dessous


Explanation:
In "jusqu'alors", "alors" is an adverbe used to express a moment in the past, at a definite time. So i would use only "until then" or "until that moment" only for the past ( jusqu'alors = jusqu'a ce moment-la ). From a native speaker. Hope it helped in some way.(LAROUSSE 1979)

xuebai
Local time: 15:57
Native speaker of: Native in FrenchFrench

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  PFB (X): I've added a supporting comment below
1 hr
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3 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 1/5Answerer confidence 1/5 peer agreement (net): +1
NFG - From "Dictionnaire des difficultés du français" (Robert)


Explanation:
(Although it is the lowest confidence level - chosen because NFG - I am pretty certain of the following from the Dictionnaires des ...)

"Sens: jusqu'à ce moment-là dans le passé... S'oppose à jusqu'à maintenant,jusqu'à présent.
Ex.: Il avait bien travaillé jusqu'alors vs. il a bien travaillé jusqu'à présent."

HTH

PFB (X)
Local time: 14:57
Works in field
Native speaker of: French
PRO pts in category: 4

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  Jane Lamb-Ruiz (X): right...dans le passé toujours..jusqu' à present or maintenant is present..c'est évident, non?
1 day 55 mins
  -> Thanks Jane
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6 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 5/5 peer agreement (net): +1
up to the moment of speaking [this is an explanation]


Explanation:
you have to figure out what the moment of speaking is..until then is always with some Kind of Past..it can't be present...Present meaning is Jusqu'a maintenant, which means until the present moment of speaking. Alors Always refers to a past point in time.

1) Jusqu' alors, on Etait riche..We had been rich until then....

2) Jusqu' alors, je l'ai souvent vu...Until that time, I saw him often..

versus: jusque à maintenant, je ne comprends pas pourquoi...Until now, I have not understood why..

My opinion: Only someone who can really understand the difference should provide an explanation...and not necessarily just a native speaker...

The "Importance of the MOment of Speaking" would not necessarily occur to a French speaker but would to an English speaker..

cheers


Jane Lamb-Ruiz (X)
Works in field
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish, Native in PortuguesePortuguese
PRO pts in category: 24

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  Yolanda Broad: This is an important and valid explanation. Time markers do not behave the same way in French and in English. Perhaps because of the (often hypothesized) creolized nature of English?
1 day 21 hrs
  -> Thanx Yolanda...:)
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33 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 3/5Answerer confidence 3/5 peer agreement (net): +4
"up till the moment when..."


Explanation:
If you think of it like that, you can see it works just as well for the present as well as the past.

I certainly come across it used like this in everyday contexts; but sorry, I'm not a native speaker ;-)

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 52 days (2005-11-18 10:54:11 GMT) Post-grading
--------------------------------------------------

Given the added context, I would say that you could at least understand it as "Up to this moment..." --- the following pluperfect tense (avait fait) seems to me quite sufficient to justify the author's choice; it's all to do, as Yolanda says, with the different way we look at the 'time-line' in English

Tony M
France
Local time: 14:57
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in category: 23

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  Sara Freitas: Exactly. The exact wording in English would depend on the context, but this is the meaning for sure.
2 mins
  -> Thanks a lot, Sara! I think it can sometimes be helpful to go back to root meanings, can't it? I know it always helps ME whenever 'lors' is concerned... ;-)
agree  Patrice
2 hrs
  -> Thanks, Patricia!
agree  Michele Fauble
3 hrs
  -> Merci, Michele !
agree  Anthony Green
4 hrs
  -> Thanks, Anthony!
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