le tout-fait cède la place au se faisant

English translation: ready-made gives way to in-the-making

01:42 Jan 25, 2014
French to English translations [PRO]
Art/Literary - Philosophy / Musicology, Philosophy of Music
French term or phrase: le tout-fait cède la place au se faisant
Full quote is "“le thème” mûrit mystérieusement dans “la thèse”, le tout-fait cède la place au se faisant ;"

It's a quote from Vladimir Jankélévitch in Liszt Rhapsodie et Improvisation

I'm stuck on how to translate 'le tout-fait; and 'se faisant'.
I understand the juxtaposition of something complete against something in the making, but I can't think of good terms in English.

Thanks!
Patrick McLoughlin
Local time: 19:50
English translation:ready-made gives way to in-the-making
Explanation:
(Though I feel good about this rendering, FYI I wasn't previously familiar with Jankélévitch's work.)
Selected response from:

Nicolas Fralin
United States
Local time: 14:50
Grading comment
4 KudoZ points were awarded for this answer



Summary of answers provided
3 +2ready-made gives way to in-the-making
Nicolas Fralin
4 -1the finished item becomes work in progress
Helen Hagon
Summary of reference entries provided
a bit of context
writeaway
ready made/already done ; in the making/being done
Nikki Scott-Despaigne

Discussion entries: 1





  

Answers


38 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 3/5Answerer confidence 3/5 peer agreement (net): +2
ready-made gives way to in-the-making


Explanation:
(Though I feel good about this rendering, FYI I wasn't previously familiar with Jankélévitch's work.)

Nicolas Fralin
United States
Local time: 14:50
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish, Native in FrenchFrench
PRO pts in category: 4

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
neutral  B D Finch: I like "ready-made", which also references Duchamp, but prefer Helen's "work in progress" for "se faisant".
9 hrs

agree  Alison Kapor (X): With one small adjustment. I think "ready made" should be avoided, because it implies an element external to the structure, a "found object", which I think would be an anachronism when discussing Liszt. I'd use "already made".
10 hrs
  -> Thank you, Alison. I appreciate your input.

agree  Nikki Scott-Despaigne: Apparently one of the ways of rendering what is in fact a reference to Herni Bergson. See my ref. "Ready made" not necessarily an anachronism, given the fact that this is a reference to Bergson, 1859-1941. Also "already done; being done".
23 hrs
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9 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5 peer agreement (net): -1
the finished item becomes work in progress


Explanation:
While I agree with the above, this is just an alternative suggestion. If I understand correctly, the author seems to be saying that a piece of music is not a finished product which is always the same, but it is open to creative interpretation and development.

Helen Hagon
Local time: 19:50
Specializes in field
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
neutral  writeaway: don't agree with becomes..... think it's more 'makes way for'
25 mins

disagree  Daryo: wrong opposition of terms – here the main characteristic of "tout-fait" is that you take it "as it is", possibly uncritically even if it's in fact some half-baked theory (=> avoir des idées toutes faites)
22 hrs
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Reference comments


33 mins peer agreement (net): +4
Reference: a bit of context

Reference information:
La musique, on le sait, offre tant d’occasions pour donner libre cours à son talent improvisateur. La toute première rencontre du compositeur avec la feuille blanche suscite déjà une opération improvisatrice. Ensuite, tout le travail créateur semble progresser à l’improviste, d’une manière hésitante et exploratrice ; le thème et ses variations se dessinent souvent selon les suggestions des sons et des accords. Dans les excellents termes de Jankélévitch, « le tout-fait cède la place au se-faisant.»
http://www.zainea.com/csepregimusic.pdf

LISZT. Rhapsodie et Improvisation: Amazon.co.uk: Vladimir ...
www.amazon.co.uk/Liszt...improvisation-Vladimir-Jankel...
Amazon.com
LISZT. Rhapsodie et Improvisation: Amazon.co.uk: Vladimir Jankélévitch: Books.

writeaway
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in category: 4

Peer comments on this reference comment (and responses from the reference poster)
agree  MatthewLaSon
2 hrs
agree  B D Finch
9 hrs
agree  Daryo
12 hrs
agree  Martin Cassell
22 hrs
neutral  Nikki Scott-Despaigne: Jankelevitch is himself referring to Henri Bergson.
1 day 8 hrs
  -> don't see how/where you arrived at that conclusion
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1 day 30 mins peer agreement (net): +1
Reference: ready made/already done ; in the making/being done

Reference information:
"tout-fait" "se faisant"
ready made/already done ; in the making/being done


Explanation:
This is in fact a reference to Henri Bergson. Above are two common ways of rendering these Bergsonian notions in English.

If you want to be chic about it, depending on the target reader, you may like to keep the French of each in inverted commas.

http://ruinae.com/_redir.php?txt=_load_book.php?criterium=au...

La philosophie française s'inspire des oppositions inintéressantes, p.ex. : ordre - désordre (Descartes), le tout fait - le se faisant (Bergson), l'être - le néant (Sartre, ou l'avoir de G.Marcel). Le contraire intéressant d'ordre est gratuité, celui de tout fait - provisoirement dit, celui d'être - la personne.


http://books.google.fr/books?id=feKCEVbKFZgC&pg=PA42&lpg=PA4...

“Signature of the World: 'What is Deleuze and Guattari's Philosophy?

books.google.fr/books?isbn=0826456219 - Traduire cette page

Eric Alliez - 2004 - ‎Philosophy

The fact that the 'scientific' chapters of this thoroughly philosophical book take ... by the lapidary critique of Bergson's all too elementary distribution between the ... 'already done' [tout fait] and the 'in the making' or 'being done' [se faisant].12 So ... 19, where Deleuze quotes the following remark by Simondon: 'modulating is ...”


http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henri_Bergson

Si Proust a bien assisté à la leçon inaugurale de Bergson au Collège de France, en 1900, s'il a lu « sinon la totalité du moins certains des ouvrages de Bergson et il en a annoté au moins un, Matière et mémoire (...) cela ne fait pas de lui un disciple de Bergson ni de la Recherche du temps perdu un roman bergsonien, tant les divergences sont grandes même pour les concepts qui leur sont communs38.» En revanche, chez Charles Péguy cette influence est clairement assumée et d'ailleurs la Note conjointe sur Monsieur Bergson est un commentaire (fait par un écrivain), de la pensée du philosophe, comme ce passage où il reprend l'opposition du « TOUT FAIT » bergsonnien au « SE FAISANT » : «Il y a quelque chose de pire que d'avoir une mauvaise pensée. C'est d'avoir une pensée toute faite. Il y a quelque chose de pire que d'avoir une mauvaise âme et même de se faire une mauvaise âme. C'est d'avoir une âme toute faite. Il y a quelque chose de pire que d'avoir une âme même perverse. C'est d'avoir une âme habituée39.»


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Note added at 1 day33 mins (2014-01-26 02:16:47 GMT)
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http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/bergson/

Bergson, general.

Nikki Scott-Despaigne
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish

Peer comments on this reference comment (and responses from the reference poster)
agree  Daryo
6 hrs
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