identité ontique

English translation: ontic identity/identity of being

GLOSSARY ENTRY (DERIVED FROM QUESTION BELOW)
French term or phrase:identité ontique
English translation:ontic identity/identity of being
Entered by: musilang

05:43 May 20, 2014
French to English translations [PRO]
Philosophy
French term or phrase: identité ontique
I've searched high and low. Anybody know what "une identité ontique" is?

L’une et l’autre sont d’ailleurs difficilement connaissables a posteriori, car irrésistiblement mais aussi arbitrairement recouvertes par le mouvement rétrograde du vrai : il parait naturel de penser que ce que l’on a fait en voulant faire la « démocratie » est « la démocratie ». Pourtant, rien ne permet de poser une ***identité ontique*** entre ce qui était cherché et ce qui a été trouvé.
musilang
United States
Local time: 08:18
ontic identity/identity of being
Explanation:
As per the previous question, this is an appropriate translation, but you seem to be asking the meaning.

"Ontic" is a term usually used in writings coming out of the Heideggerian tradition. He opposes "ontic" to "ontological" (cf http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heideggerian_terminology). "Ontic" refers to the being of something in an everyday sense: its physical, factual existence. Ontological is a deeper sense of being ("big B Being), related to human existence and attitudes...

In your text, I don't "ontic" adds a lot of meaning, to be honest, it just seems to mean "identity of being", or lack thereof, between an idea of something and its reality. We want democracy, we get democracy, but there's no internal or essential identity between the idea and the reality, they are not the same type of being.

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Note added at 19 mins (2014-05-20 06:03:20 GMT)
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I don't *think*...

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Note added at 30 mins (2014-05-20 06:14:18 GMT)
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The "retrograde movement of the true" is where, given an actual fact, we project its virtual existence backwards in time to before it existed: we think of the real thing as the product of its possibility, where the possibility is like a little ghost that gains weight until it drops into reality. In that case there would be an identity of essence or being, between a possible and a real, an idea and a reality. But this is what your author is contesting: the idea that the real is continuous with its own possibility is an illusion, a backwards projection.

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Note added at 17 hrs (2014-05-20 23:04:25 GMT)
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Thanks musilang. I learned from rkillings' useful reference on the other question that Quine used "ontic" as an alternative to "ontological", and that seems to be pretty much the sense here, in the way explained. We can probably leave Heidegger out of it. Whether it's appropriate to keep "ontic" or use ontological or another phrasing will depend on your context and audience. (Nb. it would be very important to keep "ontic" if there is in fact a Heidegger influence here).
Selected response from:

Melissa McMahon
Australia
Local time: 03:18
Grading comment
4 KudoZ points were awarded for this answer



Summary of answers provided
3 +4ontic identity/identity of being
Melissa McMahon


  

Answers


19 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 3/5Answerer confidence 3/5 peer agreement (net): +4
ontic identity/identity of being


Explanation:
As per the previous question, this is an appropriate translation, but you seem to be asking the meaning.

"Ontic" is a term usually used in writings coming out of the Heideggerian tradition. He opposes "ontic" to "ontological" (cf http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heideggerian_terminology). "Ontic" refers to the being of something in an everyday sense: its physical, factual existence. Ontological is a deeper sense of being ("big B Being), related to human existence and attitudes...

In your text, I don't "ontic" adds a lot of meaning, to be honest, it just seems to mean "identity of being", or lack thereof, between an idea of something and its reality. We want democracy, we get democracy, but there's no internal or essential identity between the idea and the reality, they are not the same type of being.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 19 mins (2014-05-20 06:03:20 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

I don't *think*...

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 30 mins (2014-05-20 06:14:18 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

The "retrograde movement of the true" is where, given an actual fact, we project its virtual existence backwards in time to before it existed: we think of the real thing as the product of its possibility, where the possibility is like a little ghost that gains weight until it drops into reality. In that case there would be an identity of essence or being, between a possible and a real, an idea and a reality. But this is what your author is contesting: the idea that the real is continuous with its own possibility is an illusion, a backwards projection.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 17 hrs (2014-05-20 23:04:25 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Thanks musilang. I learned from rkillings' useful reference on the other question that Quine used "ontic" as an alternative to "ontological", and that seems to be pretty much the sense here, in the way explained. We can probably leave Heidegger out of it. Whether it's appropriate to keep "ontic" or use ontological or another phrasing will depend on your context and audience. (Nb. it would be very important to keep "ontic" if there is in fact a Heidegger influence here).

Melissa McMahon
Australia
Local time: 03:18
Specializes in field
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in category: 74
Notes to answerer
Asker: Wonderful explanation - thank you.


Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  John Holland: Another option: the two are not "ontically identical."
2 hrs
  -> Thanks John, yes.

agree  mill2: with John
3 hrs
  -> Thanks mill2

agree  B D Finch
3 hrs
  -> Thanks, BD

agree  Verginia Ophof
5 hrs
  -> Thanks Verginia
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