coffre de fabrique

English translation: treasure chest

GLOSSARY ENTRY (DERIVED FROM QUESTION BELOW)
French term or phrase:coffre de fabrique
English translation:treasure chest
Entered by: Miranda Joubioux (X)

10:34 Jun 22, 2007
French to English translations [PRO]
Religion / History/Catholic Church in Brittany
French term or phrase: coffre de fabrique
Outre un ensemble de trois autels et retables, des confessionnaux et plusieurs statues, l’église abrite un coffre de fabrique

Le terme « fabrique » désigne à la fois l’ensemble des biens d’une paroisse et la personne en charge de leur gestion. Les archives, l’argent et les objets précieux (ciboire, calice…) étaient conservés dans ce type de coffres comme celui-ci. Les trois serrures témoignent du partage du pouvoir entre les différents fabriques, encore appelés fabriciens, chacun détenant une des clés ouvrant le coffre.

I have no idea as to how to translate this.
Miranda Joubioux (X)
Local time: 15:41
treasure coffer/trunk/chest
Explanation:
Une suggestion.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 9 heures (2007-06-22 19:48:01 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

1. gen. A repository or place for keeping things; a storehouse, a treasury; a cupboard (either in the recess of a wall or as a separate article of furniture); a safe; a locker, a press. 1393 Langland P. Pl. C. xvii. 88 Auarice haþ almaries and yre-bounden cofres. 1463 in Bury Wills (1850) 29 The same keye to be leyd in an almarye+the almerye where the seid keyes shal lyn in. 1534 in Eng. Ch. Furn. (1866) 187 Item a playne awmery with ij litill chambers wythin with too lockes. 1535 Coverdale Jer. xxxviii. 11 Vnder an almery [Wyclif celer, 1611 treasurie] he gat olde ragges & worne cloutes. 1564 in Wills & Inv. N. Counties (1835) 219 A littel paynted ambry with ij doores. 1571 Ibid. 361 Ij owld chystes ijs. vjd.+ij armoires jl. 1583 Stanyhurst Aeneis ii. (Arb.) 44 In this od hudge ambry [i.e. the Trojan horse] they ramd a number of hardye Tough knights. 1591 Percivall Span. Dict., Alhazéna, a hole in a wal to set things in, an Ambrie+Almário, an armorie, an ambrie, Armarium. 18+ Wordsworth in Myers Life (1881) 3, I possess+an almery, made in 1525, at the expense of a William Wordsworth. 1835 Beckford Recoll. 48 A press or ambery elaborately carved. 1842 Gresley Forest of Ard. 66 An almery or arched recess of compact brickwork, so constructed as to be impervious to fire. 1868 Morris Jason viii. 444 A little aumbrye, with a door o'er-gilt.
Selected response from:

Euqinimod (X)
Local time: 15:41
Grading comment
A difficult one to grade - Thanks to everyone, I managed to work "treasure chest" into my text, although church chest would probably have been better in other contexts. Not enough room to explain here, see comments above.
4 KudoZ points were awarded for this answer



Summary of answers provided
4cabinet holding the church treasury
Christopher Crockett
3 +1church chest
Maudarg (X)
4notes à l'appui de "church chest"
danièle davout
4church coffer
Melzie
3treasure coffer/trunk/chest
Euqinimod (X)


Discussion entries: 3





  

Answers


32 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 3/5Answerer confidence 3/5 peer agreement (net): +1
church chest


Explanation:
Could be a solution, e.g. as in

The most important documents in the Church Chest are the Registers, which in the case of Papplewick begin in 1661; and in the case of Linby, 1692. ...
www.nottshistory.org.uk/butler1953/linby8.htm - 33k - Cached - Similar pages

Maudarg (X)
United Kingdom
Local time: 14:41
Specializes in field
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
Notes to answerer
Asker: Yes, but I'm not sure that it contained the chalice and ciborium too.


Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  danièle davout
1 hr
Login to enter a peer comment (or grade)

2 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5
church coffer


Explanation:
now sometimes used to mean collection box. Used to be where all important documents and plate etc. were kept

Melzie
Local time: 15:41
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
Login to enter a peer comment (or grade)

2 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5
notes à l'appui de "church chest"


Explanation:
The alms of the people were dropped through holes in the lid of the church chest which had three different locks and keys, so that it could only be opened in the presence of the vicar and both churchwardens.

http://www.thrale.com/history/english/sandridge/historic_san...

danièle davout
Local time: 15:41
Native speaker of: Native in FrenchFrench

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
neutral  Christopher Crockett: Yes, this was my first thought (see my answer), but I don't believe that that is what is intended in Miranda's text.
11 mins
Login to enter a peer comment (or grade)

1 hr   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5
cabinet holding the church treasury


Explanation:
"Fabrique" ususally refers --in the art hysterical literature-- to the physical fabric of the building itself, so my first thought when I saw your term was that this was the collection box in the church for the maintence of the building.

From your context it's simply not clear that this is not what is intended in your text, so that's still a possibility.

But from the explanation of "fabrique" (which I assume is *not* in your text, per se) it would seem that it's a question of a large "chest" which held the precious liturgical objects of the church.

Euqinimod's "treasure chest" conveys something of this meaning, but I believe that this object would not have been what we think of as a "chest" --a large box which sits on the floor, it's contents stacked higgly-piggly inside-- but rather would have been a substantial piece of furniture, a large cabinet, with strong (lockable) doors and shelves inside to hold the metalwork, reliquaries, etc.

(Against this interpretation, however, might be the use of "coffre" to refer to the object, rather than "armoire." It's really an armoire that I have in mind.)

I know of no example of these which have survived from the middle ages in France, but have seen pictures of some in German churches and will try to find one on the web somewhere.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 hr (2007-06-22 12:28:28 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Although ordinary readers might think that "treasury" refers to the *money* which the church had on hand, it refers, of course, to the precious objects (usually in "minor arts" media, metalwork, ivories, perhaps even manuscripts) which the church possessed.

In today's larger churches it usually costs a few francs to "visite le tresor," a room in the church set aside for the display of the "treasury," which might include the ancient cabinet which originally contained it, if such survived.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2 hrs (2007-06-22 12:35:01 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Here's an 18th c. engraving of the "Tresor de Saint Denis" which conveys something of what I have in mind:

http://vrcoll.fa.pitt.edu/medart/image/France/sdenis/felebie...

However, I believe that this display reflects more of an early modern layout than would have been the case in the Middle Ages.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2 hrs (2007-06-22 12:40:12 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

A modern German "Schatzkammer" display (I'm still looking for a surviving "coffre":

http://www.meschede.de/kultur/sehenswuerdigkeiten/kernstadt_...

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 4 hrs (2007-06-22 14:55:44 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Here's the kind of armoire I have in mind:

http://www.medievalwoodworking.com/roe/roe16.jpg

and

http://www.medievalwoodworking.com/champeaux/champ36.jpg

Rather than something like this:

http://www.medievalwoodworking.com/roe/roe02.jpg

or

http://www.medievalwoodworking.com/roe/roe10-1.jpg

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 6 hrs (2007-06-22 17:03:42 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

This "definition" of "fabrique" is not one which I am familiar with, but here goes:

In addition to the three altars and retables, the confessionals and several statues, the church has a cabinet holding the "fabric."

The term "fabric" refers to both the property of a parish and to the person in charge of its care. The archives, the metalwork and precious liturgical objects (ciborium chalice, etc.) were preserved in this kind of cabinet, the three locks corresponding to the division of power between the three different caretakers ("fabriciens") of these properties, each of whom would have one of the keys which could open the cabinet.


It's not clear to me from this if the "coffre" was a simple "chest" or the more elaborate "armoire"/cabinet I have in mind --this might depend upon the size of the church, its importance and the state of the survival of the objects concerned.

If it were simply a question of the "archives" (i.e., the written documents) belonging to the church, the object in question would be called (in U.K. English) a "muniments chest/cabinet."

In a large and substantial ecclesiastical institution (e.g., a cathedral) the Chancellor of the chapter would be in charge of those records.

But here you've apparently got other stuff as well, the metalwork and the liturgical impliments --these would probably be in the charge of the sacristan or "chefecier" (_capicerius_ in Latin).

Since you've got three locks, it sounds like all three fellows would have had to be present --with their keys-- to open the thing.

This is a security measure, necessary in a time in which lots of stuff that wasn't Nailed Down tended to Go Walkabout.

Christopher Crockett
Local time: 09:41
Specializes in field
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in category: 12
Notes to answerer
Asker: Christopher - Thanks for all this amazing research. For info - the explanation *is* in my text.

Login to enter a peer comment (or grade)

18 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 3/5Answerer confidence 3/5
treasure coffer/trunk/chest


Explanation:
Une suggestion.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 9 heures (2007-06-22 19:48:01 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

1. gen. A repository or place for keeping things; a storehouse, a treasury; a cupboard (either in the recess of a wall or as a separate article of furniture); a safe; a locker, a press. 1393 Langland P. Pl. C. xvii. 88 Auarice haþ almaries and yre-bounden cofres. 1463 in Bury Wills (1850) 29 The same keye to be leyd in an almarye+the almerye where the seid keyes shal lyn in. 1534 in Eng. Ch. Furn. (1866) 187 Item a playne awmery with ij litill chambers wythin with too lockes. 1535 Coverdale Jer. xxxviii. 11 Vnder an almery [Wyclif celer, 1611 treasurie] he gat olde ragges & worne cloutes. 1564 in Wills & Inv. N. Counties (1835) 219 A littel paynted ambry with ij doores. 1571 Ibid. 361 Ij owld chystes ijs. vjd.+ij armoires jl. 1583 Stanyhurst Aeneis ii. (Arb.) 44 In this od hudge ambry [i.e. the Trojan horse] they ramd a number of hardye Tough knights. 1591 Percivall Span. Dict., Alhazéna, a hole in a wal to set things in, an Ambrie+Almário, an armorie, an ambrie, Armarium. 18+ Wordsworth in Myers Life (1881) 3, I possess+an almery, made in 1525, at the expense of a William Wordsworth. 1835 Beckford Recoll. 48 A press or ambery elaborately carved. 1842 Gresley Forest of Ard. 66 An almery or arched recess of compact brickwork, so constructed as to be impervious to fire. 1868 Morris Jason viii. 444 A little aumbrye, with a door o'er-gilt.

Euqinimod (X)
Local time: 15:41
Works in field
Native speaker of: Native in FrenchFrench
PRO pts in category: 4
Grading comment
A difficult one to grade - Thanks to everyone, I managed to work "treasure chest" into my text, although church chest would probably have been better in other contexts. Not enough room to explain here, see comments above.
Login to enter a peer comment (or grade)



Login or register (free and only takes a few minutes) to participate in this question.

You will also have access to many other tools and opportunities designed for those who have language-related jobs (or are passionate about them). Participation is free and the site has a strict confidentiality policy.

KudoZ™ translation help

The KudoZ network provides a framework for translators and others to assist each other with translations or explanations of terms and short phrases.


See also:

Your current localization setting

English

Select a language

Term search
  • All of ProZ.com
  • Term search
  • Jobs
  • Forums
  • Multiple search