piqueur (stag hunting)

English translation: huntsman

GLOSSARY ENTRY (DERIVED FROM QUESTION BELOW)
French term or phrase:piqueur (stag hunting)
English translation:huntsman
Entered by: Dianajoy

13:50 Dec 14, 2016
French to English translations [PRO]
Sports / Fitness / Recreation / hunting
French term or phrase: piqueur (stag hunting)
I'm translating a document for a museum describing a tapestry of a stag hunting scene in 18th century France:

"La mort du cerf aux étangs de Saint-Jean-aux-Bois (3) est l’épisode final : le cerf forcé bat l’eau. Après avoir été aboyé par les chiens, il est servi par un **piqueur**. À cette époque, on préfère utiliser l’arme à feu (fusil ou pistolet), jugée plus expéditive et plus sûre."

I've been reading up on hunting to try to figure this one out, but haven't been able to come across a definitive English term.

Here's CNRTL's definition of piqueur: a) VÉN. Valet de chasse qui, à cheval, conduit la meute et poursuit la bête. Synon. piqueux (infra rem.).La meute qui escortait le cerf, toujours conduite par le piqueur masqué (Hugo, Rhin, 1842, p.217).Un piqueur à cheval passait devant la grille de Kerloven poussant devant lui une douzaine de chiens (Ponson du Terr., Rocambole, t.1, 1859, p.632): vêtus de rouge et ceints de leur trompe, amazones au catogan noir ou blond, montés sur des chevaux puissants, de poitrine profonde et d'haleine inépuisable, chiens bleus de Gascogne sous le fouet des piqueurs avaient pris sa voie. Pesquidoux, Chez nous, 1921, p.98.

Wikipedia's page on medieval hunting says "the most prominent man in the hunting party would make the kill, with a sword or spear." So not even a specific title here (nor the same methods).

Could it just be huntsman? http://www.huntsabs.org.uk/index.php/103-tactics/tacticsarti... But that translates to veneur in French, and it's pretty general. I really can't figure this one out!

Thanks for any suggestions you might have!
Dianajoy
France
Local time: 11:41
huntsman
Explanation:
Although in ordinary parlance "hunstman" is anyone who hunts, in hunting jargon it has a particular meaning and is the closest equivalent to the piqueur. A whipper-in, on the other hand, is an assistant to the huntsman whose job is to keep the hounds to the task. It's a lowlier position than the piqueur; there is only one piqueur, and he is in charge, just like the huntsman.

First, according to the hunt sabs (who generally know what they're talking about) these roles are the same in stag hunting as in fox hunting:

"Officials and Hunt Servants
The Master, Huntsman and Whipper in perform the same functions as in fox hunts. A man complete with shotgun is in attendance."
http://www.huntsabs.org.uk/index.php/resources/tactics/103-t...

The piqueur leads the hunt. The Trésor definition you've quoted says that he "conduit la meute".

"Huntsman. The man who hunts the hounds. There is only one huntsman on the hunting field, and he has absolute right of way at all times"
"Whipper-in. The person who helps the huntsman control the hounds. This person has right of way at all times and will only give way to the Huntsman. He may be a professional or an amateur"
http://www.osbwk.co.uk/glossary of terms.htm

There are many other glossaries available that give the same definitions.

As I say, the piqueur (there is only one) is the man in charge, like the hunstman:
"Piqueur (on dit piqueux). Valet à cheval qui a la responsabilité de l'équipage de chasse à courre."

Here's an article from Country Life about some British hunting folk on a French hunt, who are struck by the fact that everything seems different:

"There is no field master or whipper-in — everyone is responsible for reporting back to the master. ‘Everyone is a whipper-in,’ Bamberger explains to me afterwards, ‘Even the foot followers’. Hounds are often cared for by a ‘valet de chien’ and controlled by the master when hunting. But the Rallye Varéna and Rallye Croquant share the luxury of a full time ‘piqueur’, a figure who exercises the hounds and with an expert knowledge of the local landscape, leads them while hunting. The role of ‘piqueur’ is taken very seriously and requires intense training.
Read more at http://www.countrylife.co.uk/articles/vive-la-chasse-en-fran...

So, as I say, "whipper-in" is much more lowly than "piqueur".

Here's a useful article from Figaro, looking at it from the other side:

"- Huntsman: le piqueur. Muni de la fameuse pibole, il mène les chiens pendant le laisser-courre. Dans le cas de l'équipage de Beaufort, Ian Farquhar, légende vivante de ce milieu, cumule les titres de master of foxhounds et de huntsman.
[...]
- Whipper-in: le second. Armé d'un fouet, il assiste le huntsman en veillant à ce que les chiens restent en meute et ne s'égayent pas dans la nature."
http://www.lefigaro.fr/international/2012/11/30/01003-201211...

By the way, we had a question on this not long ago. Both "huntsman" and "whipper-in" were proposed, but the final conclusion was that "huntsman" is the word, and I think this is right.
http://www.proz.com/kudoz/french_to_english/poetry_literatur...

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Note added at 1 hr (2016-12-14 14:58:14 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Wiktionary is generally a good dictionary, but no single dictionary is always right.
Selected response from:

Charles Davis
Spain
Local time: 11:41
Grading comment
This is what I used, though I think whipper-in could apply in some cases. I think huntsman works best here though. Thanks again!
4 KudoZ points were awarded for this answer



Summary of answers provided
4 +2whipper-in
philgoddard
4 +2huntsman
Charles Davis
4Translation of the word Piqueur
Ennystevens
2dog handler
Mair A-W (PhD)
Summary of reference entries provided
piqueur - huntsman or whipper-in?
Alison MacG

Discussion entries: 7





  

Answers


8 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5 peer agreement (net): +2
whipper-in


Explanation:
Noun
piqueur m ‎(plural piqueurs)
whipper-in

whipper-in ‎(plural whipper-ins or whippers-in)
A huntsman who keeps the hounds from wandering, and whips them in, if necessary, to the chase.




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Note added at 10 mins (2016-12-14 14:00:53 GMT)
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Did you get this job because your name is Diana? :-)

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Note added at 13 mins (2016-12-14 14:04:01 GMT)
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Hence the last citation in your dictionary reference: "chiens bleus de Gascogne sous le fouet des piqueurs".


    Reference: http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/piqueur
    Reference: http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/whipper-in
philgoddard
United States
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in category: 16
Notes to answerer
Asker: I came across that term but given that they're more in an assistant role, I wan't so sure they would be given the 'honour' of the kill. I can't believe I missed the wiktionary entry, I guess I was looking in all the wrong places!

Asker: And I'm actually not very aptly named since I'm a vegetarian and not necessarily a hunting proponent! :) Luckily it's just one section in a much longer document, but one that has taken me quite a while since I know nothing about hunting...

Asker: Thanks again for your suggestion Phil, I ended up going for huntsman in this case, but I think whipper-in can also work in some situations.


Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  writeaway: Whipper-In - The staff members who assist the huntsman with discipline and behavior of hounds in the hunt field. http://www.mfha.com/foxhunting-glossary.html
42 mins

agree  Yvonne Gallagher: yep, I proposed both terms here but "huntsman" was chosenhttp://www.proz.com/kudoz/french_to_english/poetry_literatur...
1 hr
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1 hr   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5 peer agreement (net): +2
huntsman


Explanation:
Although in ordinary parlance "hunstman" is anyone who hunts, in hunting jargon it has a particular meaning and is the closest equivalent to the piqueur. A whipper-in, on the other hand, is an assistant to the huntsman whose job is to keep the hounds to the task. It's a lowlier position than the piqueur; there is only one piqueur, and he is in charge, just like the huntsman.

First, according to the hunt sabs (who generally know what they're talking about) these roles are the same in stag hunting as in fox hunting:

"Officials and Hunt Servants
The Master, Huntsman and Whipper in perform the same functions as in fox hunts. A man complete with shotgun is in attendance."
http://www.huntsabs.org.uk/index.php/resources/tactics/103-t...

The piqueur leads the hunt. The Trésor definition you've quoted says that he "conduit la meute".

"Huntsman. The man who hunts the hounds. There is only one huntsman on the hunting field, and he has absolute right of way at all times"
"Whipper-in. The person who helps the huntsman control the hounds. This person has right of way at all times and will only give way to the Huntsman. He may be a professional or an amateur"
http://www.osbwk.co.uk/glossary of terms.htm

There are many other glossaries available that give the same definitions.

As I say, the piqueur (there is only one) is the man in charge, like the hunstman:
"Piqueur (on dit piqueux). Valet à cheval qui a la responsabilité de l'équipage de chasse à courre."

Here's an article from Country Life about some British hunting folk on a French hunt, who are struck by the fact that everything seems different:

"There is no field master or whipper-in — everyone is responsible for reporting back to the master. ‘Everyone is a whipper-in,’ Bamberger explains to me afterwards, ‘Even the foot followers’. Hounds are often cared for by a ‘valet de chien’ and controlled by the master when hunting. But the Rallye Varéna and Rallye Croquant share the luxury of a full time ‘piqueur’, a figure who exercises the hounds and with an expert knowledge of the local landscape, leads them while hunting. The role of ‘piqueur’ is taken very seriously and requires intense training.
Read more at http://www.countrylife.co.uk/articles/vive-la-chasse-en-fran...

So, as I say, "whipper-in" is much more lowly than "piqueur".

Here's a useful article from Figaro, looking at it from the other side:

"- Huntsman: le piqueur. Muni de la fameuse pibole, il mène les chiens pendant le laisser-courre. Dans le cas de l'équipage de Beaufort, Ian Farquhar, légende vivante de ce milieu, cumule les titres de master of foxhounds et de huntsman.
[...]
- Whipper-in: le second. Armé d'un fouet, il assiste le huntsman en veillant à ce que les chiens restent en meute et ne s'égayent pas dans la nature."
http://www.lefigaro.fr/international/2012/11/30/01003-201211...

By the way, we had a question on this not long ago. Both "huntsman" and "whipper-in" were proposed, but the final conclusion was that "huntsman" is the word, and I think this is right.
http://www.proz.com/kudoz/french_to_english/poetry_literatur...

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 hr (2016-12-14 14:58:14 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Wiktionary is generally a good dictionary, but no single dictionary is always right.

Charles Davis
Spain
Local time: 11:41
Specializes in field
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in category: 27
Grading comment
This is what I used, though I think whipper-in could apply in some cases. I think huntsman works best here though. Thanks again!
Notes to answerer
Asker: Once again you've come through with some great resources! Thanks for confirming my sense that the whipper-in is more of a lowly role. It does seem like huntsman is more appropriate here. And thanks for sharing that other thread, would never have thought to look under "piqueux"!


Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  Yvonne Gallagher: yep, thought it looked familiar...and it is in the glossary//glad to know my brain cells are still functioning though!
21 mins
  -> Many thanks :) I remembered it but couldn't find it at first, because it's under piqueux, not piqueur. // Very much so! I think you were dead right.

agree  B D Finch
20 hrs
  -> Many thanks!
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1 hr   confidence: Answerer confidence 2/5Answerer confidence 2/5
dog handler


Explanation:
just a suggestion based on reading some of the references ...

Mair A-W (PhD)
Germany
Local time: 11:41
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in category: 4
Notes to answerer
Asker: Thanks for your suggestion, though I ended up going with huntsman.


Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
neutral  writeaway: hardly a hunting-specific term.
1 hr
  -> true. I'd be inclined to leave it in french, I think

disagree  B D Finch: Huntspersons wouldn't call their hounds "dogs".
19 hrs

agree  philgoddard
1 day 3 hrs
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345 days   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5
Translation of the word Piqueur


Explanation:
Piqueur is a mediaeval French term for the man who actually dispatches the stag when it's at bay, often in a river. He does it with a sword type instrument. In UK the term would indicate the huntsman, not the whipper in.

Example sentence(s):
  • The piqueur dispatched the stag at bay
Ennystevens
France
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
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Reference comments


4 hrs peer agreement (net): +1
Reference: piqueur - huntsman or whipper-in?

Reference information:
Possibly interesting references

The French piqueur does not carry his whip in his hand as an English huntsman does, but twists the thong round the stock, and pokes it into his boot, only drawing it out by its little curved hook, as occasion requires, instantly replacing it after using it, and seeming to be much more anxious to be ready to make use of his horn than his voice or his whip.

If I were inclined to find fault with any part of the whole, it would be with that part of the system which makes every piqueur a huntsman, and not a whipper-in ; when hounds riot or hang on scents, or in cover, the French huntsman trusts entirely to his horn to bring on his hounds : if a good whipper-in, like some of our first-rate hands, were added to each equipage de chasse in France, I think that French hunting might be made more efficient, and conser quently more agreeable to those who may feel disposed to enjoy it.
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=yY4EAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA255&dq...

Upon inquiring whether they were the huntsman and whipper-in, I was answered in the negative ; and, indeed, those functionaries (who are called first and second piqueurs) did not make their appearance until after the entire party had assembled, when the first piqueur made his report to the Prince of the game to be hunted that day.
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=iYQ4AQAAMAAJ&pg=PA412&dq...

Alison MacG
United Kingdom
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in category: 32
Note to reference poster
Asker: Thanks, these are great passages that make the whole process more clear. And indeed it seems like there isn't really a direct equivalence between either of these terms, a big part of the challenge!


Peer comments on this reference comment (and responses from the reference poster)
agree  Charles Davis: Interesting to see that in the nineteenth century British hunters found that French terminology and practice didn't match their own, as in my Country Life reference.
51 mins
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