Grotte de Thaïs ou Taï?

15:33 Feb 21, 2017 

As a proper noun, I would not even translate "Grotte". There are EN websites referring to it with the full French name. Any English speaker will realise that it is a cave, as there is not much guesswork neeeded to get from "Grotte" to "Grotto" thus cave. ;-) When describing them in the body of a text, you could use "cave", in other words in inastances where the French would use "grotte(s)" with no capital letter), but otherwise, any direct reference to a proper noun, without being psychorigid about it, should remain as it. The idea is that when you look for i/themt on a map, you should be able to find it/them.

19:32 Feb 20, 2017 

Thanks for your idea - it was useful as always to use you all as sounding boards. Yes, the cave does have two spellings (although Thais is now the accepted one) so I do need to get this point across. I think I agree with Charles but will go for "the cave of Thais or the cave of Tai? And will put a note that the word badger could be included after Tai to help explain the following sentence which as Charles says highlights a dichotomy between the more romantic and prosaic explanation.Thanks again everyone!

18:21 Feb 20, 2017 

I presume that the subtitle refers to the idea that "Grotte de Thaïs" romanticises the cave, because of the associations of the name, whereas "Taï" is patois.

17:58 Feb 20, 2017 

That's right. Patricia has found what is clearly a different Grotte du Taï (sometimes spelt Thaï) in Remoulins in the Gard.

As I say, I would guess that the name "Thaïs" is spurious and dates from the end of the nineteenth century. France's novel (1891), which I have not read, was very popular in its day, and Massenet's Thaïs was a huge hit and is often performed. I saw it only last year with Plácido Domingo (who was quite wonderful) singing Athanaël. There was also a play in 1911 and a silent film version by Sam Goldwyn in 1917, starring Mary Garden, who had very successfully sung the role in the opera (she created other roles for Massenet, though not this one, not to mention Mélisande for Debussy in 1902). The most memorable scene in the opera is the conversion of Thaïs during a night spent in what is sometimes imagined as a cave; it's the interlude between the scenes of Act 2, when the beautiful and extremely famous Méditation for solo violin is played.

17:24 Feb 20, 2017 

OK Charles, in fact there are probably other caves with the same name since in comes from a common noun "taï". I still think that you must keep capitalized words i.e. proper nouns as they are. So OK for Thaïs or Taï cave.

17:17 Feb 20, 2017 

I think it is essentiel not to rewrite the source text here. The fundamental point at issue is that this is a proper noun. Indeed, even if the text were to be incorrect - something which a translator might choose to point out, following research - the whole thing turns on the fact that the source text underlines the existence of two spellings, two proper nouns, that should not be translated.

17:14 Feb 20, 2017 

I hear you, and Grotte de Thaïs is certainly what it is commonly called nowadays, but "Grotte du Taï" certainly exists as an alternative name in learned literature. I've already quoted one example; here is another (and there are more):

"A. BOCQUET - Gisement de la grotte du Taï (ou Thaïs) et abri de Campalou-St-Nazaire-en-Royans"
http://www.parc-du-vercors.fr/documentation/opac_css/index.p...

The translator's task here is obviously to reflect the fact that there are alternative forms of the name of the same cave.

17:05 Feb 20, 2017 

Once again I live in the region and it is never written or called grotte de thaî;

17:03 Feb 20, 2017 

Surely you should just put "The Thaïs cave or the Taï cave?" It must be about the origin of each form of the name and (probably) which is the original name. My money would be on "Taï", the patois word (see glossary here: https://books.google.es/books?id=k2ACAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA408&lpg=P... ), with "Thaïs" (now the standard name, as Dr Manu says) being a corruption, under the influence of the legend of St Thaïs, as in Anatole France's novel and Massenet's opera. Thaïs, a converted courtesan. spends a period with Athanaël (Paphnuce in the novel) in the desert and depicted by Ribera at the mouth of a cave.

I don't think you should translate "Taï" here. Just put the name. The fact that it means "badger" will surely emerge in the text.

By the way it is sometimes (though more rarely) called "Grotte du Taï":
"grottes du Taï (180 m) et du Taï 2 (200 m)"
https://books.google.es/books?id=020BByVewvoC&pg=PA30 (caption bottom right)

16:46 Feb 20, 2017 

It is never written Taï ( I live in the region) but the name does come from a local badger called taï.

16:38 Feb 20, 2017 

The whole point of the original here, Ias I understand it, is the very point that the name can be written in two different ways. When it comes to the pronunciation, I think they are the same. Is that correct? In any event, as the whole idea is about there being two different spellings, each with its own origin, in my opinion, the only possible option here is to keep both spellings in order to make the same point in English.
What you may have to do however, is to point out that fact out and then perhaps indicate what it means "badger cave", etc.